Sony Reader: What do we want from searching? (poll)

[masa]

Word search is not a big problem.
PLEASE ADD 'PAGE SEARCH' OPTION.
I really really hate to find 550th page at my 1000 page PDF file.

[TadW]

Originally Posted by masa

Word search is not a big problem.
PLEASE ADD 'PAGE SEARCH' OPTION.
I really really hate to find 550th page at my 1000 page PDF file.

I agree... something like a "go to page x" feature would be nice. And it's probably not too difficult if they find an intuitive way for user input.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by alex_d

Developer resources definately aren't a reason. It would take one person one week to implement a search that has all of the features listed at the top.

That assumes they had one person who spent one week during the software development stage sitting on his thumb instead of implementing a search function.

What I was trying to point out is that that probably was not the case.

Originally Posted by alex_d

The only reason that Sony might have is a disgusting view that dumbing down an already simple function will help it sell more Readers.

I decline to decide that just because I can't come up with reason other than premeditated malice, that there is no other reason. In this case, however, we're actually discussing a valid reason, that may or may not be anywhere near the truth of what went on.

Originally Posted by alex_d

Do you agree with that? Would YOU prefer that?

Before we get to the question of whether I agree with your view of their reasoning, we have to answer the question of whether I agree with your conclusion as to what that reasoning was in the first place. I think it's pretty well established that I don't.

Please understand, I'm not saying you're wrong, it's entirely possible that Sony's specific goal was to make the Reader so simple that a developmentally challenged hamster could operate it, and all the normal folks who wanted one could just suffer the lacks, I just don't see that as the most compelling scenerio, that's all.

My point is that none of us was there (unless you have a confession you'd like to make ), we have no idea what drove this particular decision, and assuming that it was malicious is just a good way to raise the blood pressure. (I prefer bacon for that purpose )

Originally Posted by TadW

I agree... something like a "go to page x" feature would be nice. And it's probably not too difficult if they find an intuitive way for user input.

You mean like clicking the center part of the jogstick to bring up a menu and using the 1-0 buttons to enter the page number? Yeah, that could work.

[NatCh]

P.S. to all: I'm in training and then traveling for the next couple of weeks, so my access will be a bit spotty, just so folks don't worry about me like the did scotty1024 (unlikely, I know)

[alex_d]

To call it "malicious" is inappropriate. I'm just saying Sony looked at stuff like the iPod and though this was best, and that we should try hard to convince it otherwise.

If you are not convinced that the programming effort to implement all five search features is insignifant for a product like this and hardly even factors into the decision, then I guess we'll just have to disagree. Btw, have you had any programming experience?


P.S. I think pressing one of the number buttons is a good way to call up page # entry. If we have page numbers, they don't need to do the current 10% 20% bs.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by alex_d

To call it "malicious" is inappropriate. I'm just saying Sony looked at stuff like the iPod and though this was best, and that we should try hard to convince it otherwise.

Okay, I guess I overread the intended strength of your earlier statement: "The only reason that Sony might have is a disgusting view that dumbing down an already simple function will help it sell more Readers." It happens sometimes with this sort of all-text discussion medium, sorry 'bout that.

Originally Posted by alex_d

If you are not convinced that the programming effort to implement all five search features is insignifant for a product like this and hardly even factors into the decision...

The real factor here, as I see it, isn't so much how significant a feature is compared to an overall project, nor even how significant a job that feature is in a vacuum (though that's closer ), but rather how the available resources (including time and schedules, etc.) compare to the overall project.

In any case, I offered that as a single example of a possibility of what might have stopped them, not as any sort of a difinitive answer.

Originally Posted by alex_d

... then I guess we'll just have to disagree.

That's no problem, it happens all the time around here -- there are just too many perspectives for them all to line up. What I like about the place is the (mainly) easy-going attitude when folks do disagree. Folks get a bit excited on occasion, but mostly it's remarkably respectful

Originally Posted by alex_d

Btw, have you had any programming experience?

A bit, I've been a full-time programmer for almost six years now, and a part time programmer for about three-and-a-half before that. Before that was just dabbling, really.

Some of my personal primary programming philosophy includes: make it easy; if the computer can do it for me then I should let it; and things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler.

[baker101]

i just had a quick idea. i think having the ability to tag sections of a file with your own description would be nice but not sure how i would implement it.

maybe a file in some special format where 1 column would be the tag description, the second column would be the book, and the third would be the page number. when you open the view in the reader, you get a display of all your tags, where they can also be grouped by category. when you press a tab that coresponds to the tag number, it will open the book and take you to the page reference. basically a del.ico.ous clone on the reader for your own books.

[alex_d]

"A bit, I've been a full-time programmer for almost six years now, and a part time programmer for about three-and-a-half before that."

Well, alright. I'll give you that that's more than I had. (And I guess your experience was telling since you didn't argue that adding five features would be hard, but that no one ever meets deadlines.) But if in the development of all the software for the Reader it came down to not finding a couple of man weeks for search... then those guys must have had serious problems.

I do think they just tried copying the iPod. The comparison between the reader and the ipod I think goes quite deep. The reader copies almost completely the ipod's vertical-list-of-options scheme, and Sony has even hired ex-Apple guys to work on the connect store. However, not only does the ipod do its job much better, its interface is a compromise between it brilliant clickwheel and the wheel's and the screen's limitations. Without the wheel or tiny screen, the Reader is simply sacraficing an important facet of good interfaces: visual communication of the importance and relationship between options (in english, grouping and size). The ability to only have 10 options on the screen at once doesn't help either.

With that in mind, I can actually see how staying faithful to the vertical-list scheme can make simple functions like search cumbersome.


"and things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler. "

You know, it's a pet theory of mine that the Flynn Effect is caused by people having to work with a larger number of more complex tools. Although you may not like sophisticated UIs, your children (and probably you yourself) just might get smarter figuring them out.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by alex_d

But if in the development of all the software for the Reader it came down to not finding a couple of man weeks for search... then those guys must have had serious problems.

Like I said, that was just an example of a reason, not the one that I thought was most likely, just the first one that came to me (not usually my best notions, as it happens ).

One thing my programming experience has taught me is that there are almost always reasons.

Back when I was just starting to do this full-time, my attitude was, well if we can do it, and folks are asking for it, then why not do it? In my case, the answers were usually something along the lines of, that's the user's responsibility to keep up with, and we don't want to get into doing the users' scut-work when we have our own responsibilities to take care of -- kind of an "if we go there, we'll have to live there" situation. The reasons that we didn't want to expand our scope to discharge our users' unrelated responsibilities are legion, and I won't go into them, but the chief is probably that a lot of them have M.D. and Ph.D. after their names, often a mark of the most arrogant of all creatures. They fall into the give an inch they'll take a parsec category.

Originally Posted by alex_d

I do think they just tried copying the iPod.

I think you may be onto something there ... patterning after the iPod's concept, at any rate. One of its hallmarks is its simplicity, and they do seem to have aimed for that. I think it might be because more folks complain about things being too complex than too simple.

For my part, I like the simplicity.

Originally Posted by alex_d

With that in mind, I can actually see how staying faithful to the vertical-list scheme can make simple functions like search cumbersome.

See, now you're coming up with perfectly reasonable possible motivations for the decision! Excellent, I figured you'd be able to if you stopped and thought about it. (sorry I couldn't resist )

Originally Posted by alex_d

You know, it's a pet theory of mine that the Flynn Effect is caused by people having to work with a larger number of more complex tools. Although you may not like sophisticated UIs, your children (and probably you yourself) just might get smarter figuring them out.

Interesting idea, I hadn't heard of the Flynn Effect, and I'm glad to know about it (thanks for the reference, BTW ).

Also as an aside, I do like sophisticated UI's, so long as they aren't just being complistic. (complicated for the sake of being complicated -- my own word, the opposite of 'simplistic') If the complexity is needed, then bring it on, if it's not ... well, I've got enough complicated things to be getting on with, so ....

Just at first glace (all I've had time for, you know), I'd say you're probably onto something there -- my wife and her family and I were recently discussing some studies that showed that older folks (her grandma recently died at 96) stay mentally more facile when they keep learning new things, keeps the brain flexible. That seems to be a clear micro-correlation with this effect. And I'd tend to agree with you that dealing with increasingly complex things probably adds to it.

Where I'd disagree, however, is with the idea I infer (not imply -- pet peeve, sorry) from your statement, namely that it's therefore good to make things complicated 'cause it'll make us all smarter. I think life gets unavoidably complicated enough on its own these days without adding to it deliberately. But of course that's just my take on it.

[alex_d]

"Where I'd disagree, however, is with the idea I infer (not imply -- pet peeve, sorry) from your statement, namely that it's therefore good to make things complicated 'cause it'll make us all smarter. I think life gets unavoidably complicated enough on its own these days without adding to it deliberately."

Of course. None of it is clear-cut as "harder is better". Having a lot of features without an interface that motivates you to use them doesn't help. You have to push the envelope on both the features and their organization with equal effort, creating an interface whose patterns and thought-out structure are as susceptible to being understood by intuition as they facilitate the very training of intuition. (I think it's that elegant kind of complexity which best trains the brain.) A designer, especially one who has the raw talent, just shouldn't be afraid (and Apple comes to mind).

Anyway.. about the Reader.

"See, now you're coming up with perfectly reasonable possible motivations for the decision!"

No, getting stuck with a bad design philosophy that hobbles your ability to add basic features is not a perfectly reasonable motivation. I mean I can't blame any individual person. The developers were doing what they were told by management, and the management perhaps didn't understand the challenges facing the developers or the solutions.

I think where our role should be, however, is not showing management what's the least subset of headaches they can get away with (the poll question), but trying to help them figure out how to integrate as much as possible in the best way. I guess I didn't approach the issue that way at first, but hopefully I got it right this time.

Indeed, that's what many people have already been thinking about.

To add to the discussion, I think a basic approach could be making the search interface look similar to how it usually appears in, say, Wordpad, Firefox, or Internet Explorer. Instead of clicking with the mouse, though, you tag each checkbox or button with a number. It'll look familiar, there is enough screen resolution to make it look good, and there's enough number keys. Maybe something more original might be better, but I think this is an improvement over a vertical-list-of-options approach (which will be unfamiliar and will lack most of the visual queues). Hitting the number associated with the text box can bring up a cellphone keypad for multitapping. Again not original, but familiar and tried and true. Just the way Sony likes it.

[yvanleterrible]

Sigh!

The time seems far away!

[HarryT]

If I wanted something like that, Yvan, I'd have bought a Tablet PC . I don't want something "A4" sized or larger; for me the Reader is the perfect size.

This really isn't a "one size fits all" market. There's room in the market for both "paperback book" sized devices like the Reader, and A4 sized devices such as your picture for technical manuals, newspapers, etc. Wouldn't you agree?

[NatCh]

I agree, most vehemently.

[dugbug]

Let me ask a dumb question: Are we talking about searching the current book we are reading, or searching all of the material stored on the device (including I imagine MP3 titles)?

I envision putting technical material on a sony, but really I want one just for linear reading of fiction. My idea of search would be for the current book only.

-d

[NatCh]

Well, I had just the current one in mind, when I posed the question, but this is a good thing to clarify.