Kobo future firmware feature request thread

[Anak]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Given the problems that various implementors have in making web pages render identically -- try looking at many web pages in IE, Firefox, Chrome, Opera, etc, you are asking a bit much to have two renderers supporting different standards give identical results.

Regards,
David

Correct, but Adobe is de facto the standard on e-readers. That won't change when 3pub replaces epub2.
A renderer should simply follow the epub3 specification.
Which renderer is used is not that important as it is basically a page rendering engine plus a DRM solution. Kobo could also use the Adobe renderer and use there own kDRM solution or the Access renderer and Adobe DRM schemes.
A reader should use one page renderer that recognizes the format (epub or kepub) and apply the appropriate DRM scheme.

Access should license the Adobe DRM scheme and offer it to their customers. Best of both worlds? Easier to maintain by Kobo? Other?

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Anak

Correct, but Adobe is de facto the standard on e-readers. That won't change when 3pub replaces epub2.
A renderer should simply follow the epub3 specification.
Which renderer is used is not that important as it is basically a page rendering engine plus a DRM solution. Kobo could also use the Adobe renderer and use there own kDRM solution or the Access renderer and Adobe DRM schemes.
A reader should use one page renderer that recognizes the format (epub or kepub) and apply the appropriate DRM scheme.

Access should license the Adobe DRM scheme and offer it to their customers. Best of both worlds? Easier to maintain by Kobo? Other?

At this time, Datalogics who are the current maintainers of the Adobe RMSDK are member of the Readium Foundation and have stated they will be basing their epub3 software on the final Readium code with the latest Adobe DRM grafted on -- you can download DL Reader to get an idea of the direction that are going into given that the big item with their latest release is the hardened DRM though they have implemented some of the text direction from epub3. As for following the epub3 specification? I suggest checking out how different web pages can look in various browsers which implement the same standards. The renderer does matter since no minimally complex standard has ever been implemented that does not have some spots where the implementor can make choices especially in the area of "optional" items.

ACCESS does not supply the DRM scheme used by Kobo. That is a Kobo addition which does avoid the licensing fees. There is also a DRM scheme which Kobo has had some input into which has been proposed for use by Readium which would give us yet another DRM scheme.

Regards,
David

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

So you are saying this is a good thing overall or a legitimate excuse? Should not some effort be made to make it work seamlessly? Would not ease of use and smooth transitioning work in the developers favour?

A legitimate excuse. Adobe implements epub2, ACCESS implements epub3. Much like asking why your HTML 3 browser did not render pages identically to a HTML 4 browser or handle HTML 4 tags.

Entering the Japanese market without the text direction support offered by epub3 would have been very difficult for Kobo. With their latest release, Datalogics is offering some text direction support in an Adobe DRM environment but the two books I looked at had issues including furigana not being displayed correctly.

For the end user, being caught in a time of change is not all that pleasant but pretty much the only other game in town is Amazon who can modify their proprietary standard much faster.

Regards,
David

[Anak]

Originally Posted by DNSB

As for following the epub3 specification? I suggest checking out how different web pages can look in various browsers which implement the same standards. The renderer does matter since no minimally complex standard has ever been implemented that does not some spots where the implementor can make choices especially in the area of "optional" items.

ACCESS does not supply the DRM scheme used by Kobo. That is a Kobo addition which does avoid the licensing fees. There is also a DRM scheme which Kobo has had some input into which has been proposed for use by Readium which would give us yet another DRM scheme.

Regards,
David

Yes, I'm aware and have seen different browser engines handle web pages differently. I just wanted to state that Kobo should use only one renderer (I guess Kobo would choose Access; lower costs/fees or easier to build/adapt or any other reason etc.) that works with both epub flavours and different DRM schemes. Using only one renderer will build pages near 100% identical.

I do use Datalogics DL Reader as it is a lot faster as ADE.

[PeterT]

But by using ACCESS ONLY they instantly remove the option of accessing eBook stores / Libraries that use ADE based DRM.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Anak

Yes, I'm aware and have seen different browser engines handle web pages differently. I just wanted to state that Kobo should use only one renderer (I guess Kobo would choose Access; lower costs/fees or easier to build/adapt or any other reason etc.) that works with both epub flavours and different DRM schemes. Using only one renderer will build pages near 100% identical.

I do use Datalogics DL Reader as it is a lot faster as ADE.

I don't know what Adobe/Datalogics would charge for using ADEPT DRM outside of Adobe's software framework but I suspect it would be little if any cheaper and would likely be a pain to implement -- dev hours are not free.

My opinion is that if Kobo had to choose one renderer, at this point in time, Kobo would have to go with ACCESS -- one look at how an epub2 renderer handles Japanese typography gives you all the information you need to make that decision.

Regards,
David

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by DNSB

A legitimate excuse. Adobe implements epub2, ACCESS implements epub3. Much like asking why your HTML 3 browser did not render pages identically to a HTML 4 browser or handle HTML 4 tags.

Entering the Japanese market without the text direction support offered by epub3 would have been very difficult for Kobo. With their latest release, Datalogics is offering some text direction support in an Adobe DRM environment but the two books I looked at had issues including furigana not being displayed correctly.

For the end user, being caught in a time of change is not all that pleasant but pretty much the only other game in town is Amazon who can modify their proprietary standard much faster.

Regards,
David

Now you are confusing me Are you saying that Kobo's renderer (modified or not is the equivalent of an HTML3 browser in an HTML 4 world, or the opposite. Seems you are saying the first.

HTML 3/HTML4 or Adobe/Access can't say I care if they are reasonable. Adobe is reasonable on my Sony and slightly less reasonable on my Kobos. Acess does not work on anything but my Kobo's and as I seem to encounter every bug in the known universe no matter which way I upgrade, or whether I use SD card or not, well I do not do kepubs.

I fail to see Kobo's marketing strategy. You can only view kepubs (without converting) on a Kobo device or using a Kobo app. Kobo apps are AFAIK kind of crippled in that they can only be used to view Kobo store epubs or kepubs, so even if they are truly splendiferous only diehard Kobo people are going to use them long term.


Just saying

Helen

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by DNSB

I don't know what Adobe/Datalogics would charge for using ADEPT DRM outside of Adobe's software framework but I suspect it would be little if any cheaper and would likely be a pain to implement -- dev hours are not free.

My opinion is that if Kobo had to choose one renderer, at this point in time, Kobo would have to go with ACCESS -- one look at how an epub2 renderer handles Japanese typography gives you all the information you need to make that decision.

Regards,
David

So a significant percentage of their ebooks sold are Japanese? Gotta be more than 50% IMO to drive the market even if a Japanese owned product.

Helen

[Rev. Bob]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

You can only view kepubs (without converting) on a Kobo device or using a Kobo app.

That is true...

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Kobo apps are AFAIK kind of crippled in that they can only be used to view Kobo store epubs or kepubs,

...but that is not. The Kobo apps can read generic EPUBs just fine. In fact, if I use Safari to visit a vendor and buy a DRM-free EPUB on my iPad, I can click the download link and elect to open that EPUB in either iBooks or my Kobo app.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Rev. Bob

That is true...

...but that is not. The Kobo apps can read generic EPUBs just fine. In fact, if I use Safari to visit a vendor and buy a DRM-free EPUB on my iPad, I can click the download link and elect to open that EPUB in either iBooks or my Kobo app.

I have limited experience with the Kobo app which is why I said AFAIK. I was trying to sideload a library book for a friend and ended up using another app. Are you able to easily download and sideload from any epub vender and or project Gutenburg etc. easily? She had a Blackberry BTW.

Helen

Edit: and also can you do the same with DRMed epubs? Can you download from the content server?

[Rev. Bob]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I was trying to sideload a library book for a friend and ended up using another app. Are you able to easily download and sideload from any epub vender and or project Gutenburg etc. easily? She had a Blackberry BTW.

I can't speak on the Blackberry version, but "click the download link and pick Open In Kobo" for the iOS version seems pretty easy to me.

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Edit: and also can you do the same with DRMed epubs? Can you download from the content server?

In my experience with the iOS app, yes to the latter; Safari recognizes the ACSM file as something the Kobo app can use. The former question...I'd assume not, but I could be wrong. I don't commonly use my Kobo apps for reading; that's why I have an actual reader.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Now you are confusing me Are you saying that Kobo's renderer (modified or not is the equivalent of an HTML3 browser in an HTML 4 world, or the opposite. Seems you are saying the first.

HTML 3/HTML4 or Adobe/Access can't say I care if they are reasonable. Adobe is reasonable on my Sony and slightly less reasonable on my Kobos. Acess does not work on anything but my Kobo's and as I seem to encounter every bug in the known universe no matter which way I upgrade, or whether I use SD card or not, well I do not do kepubs.

I fail to see Kobo's marketing strategy. You can only view kepubs (without converting) on a Kobo device or using a Kobo app. Kobo apps are AFAIK kind of crippled in that they can only be used to view Kobo store epubs or kepubs, so even if they are truly splendiferous only diehard Kobo people are going to use them long term.

The ACCESS renderer would be the equivalent of a HTML 5 browser in a world where most of the content is still being programmed for HTML 4. Adobe's RMDSK is fine for epub2 compliant files but, at a pace best described as glacial, the publishing world is moving in the direction of epub3.

You can view a non-DRMed epub3 ebook with an epub2 renderer but quite a few strange glitches where the standards differ and use of some epub3 features such as the improved SVG image handling will cause the ebook to be pretty much unreadable on an epub2 renderer.

The Kobo app on my iPad and Nexus 7 are capable of working with DRM free .epub files which is why I use them since that way the choice is pretty much transparent to me (iTunes to copy the epubs for the iPad, file copy for the Nexus 7, syncing over the network for .kepub ebooks on either). The Kobo app will not work with Adobe ADEPT DRMed epubs which limits borrowing library books or purchasing on the web. I've also purchased a couple of DRM free ebooks and downloaded and opened them on iOS and Android but not my normal mode of operation. Mostly concerns about connecting to a network outside home or work and sending sensitive information. It's not paranoia if you know they are out to get you!


I would agree about converting epub to kepub.epub at home - it seems to be a crap shoot. But then such conversions are not a supported mode so I can't blame Kobo for any problems.

Regards,
David

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

So a significant percentage of their ebooks sold are Japanese? Gotta be more than 50% IMO to drive the market even if a Japanese owned product.

Why would it need to be more than 50%? As long as the percentage is significant enough to add to the bottom line, it would make business sense. I'd also suggest one point to remember is that Kobo in the USA is not a major player compared to Amazon while elsewhere in the world, Kobo is a major player in the ereader market. Unfortunately, hard numbers seem hard to obtain but statements that Kobo has passed Amazon in the Japanese ereader market and is #1 in several European countries and Australia/New Zealand suggest that Kobo is best served by concentrating outside the USA while still attempting to grow their market share in the USA.

Regards,
David

[leftright]

It would be nice to have a easy method of switching between two open/'now reading and game' items, instead of navigating all the way back to the home screen to get to a extra/game in use.
i.e.
Current open book, Chess game in progress.
If I'm in chess I'd like to be able to switch to the current open book within two or even better, one screen touch,

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by DNSB

The ACCESS renderer would be the equivalent of a HTML 5 browser in a world where most of the content is still being programmed for HTML 4. Adobe's RMDSK is fine for epub2 compliant files but, at a pace best described as glacial, the publishing world is moving in the direction of epub3.

You can view a non-DRMed epub3 ebook with an epub2 renderer but quite a few strange glitches where the standards differ and use of some epub3 features such as the improved SVG image handling will cause the ebook to be pretty much unreadable on an epub2 renderer.

The Kobo app on my iPad and Nexus 7 are capable of working with DRM free .epub files which is why I use them since that way the choice is pretty much transparent to me (iTunes to copy the epubs for the iPad, file copy for the Nexus 7, syncing over the network for .kepub ebooks on either). The Kobo app will not work with Adobe ADEPT DRMed epubs which limits borrowing library books or purchasing on the web. I've also purchased a couple of DRM free ebooks and downloaded and opened them on iOS and Android but not my normal mode of operation. Mostly concerns about connecting to a network outside home or work and sending sensitive information. It's not paranoia if you know they are out to get you!


I would agree about converting epub to kepub.epub at home - it seems to be a crap shoot. But then such conversions are not a supported mode so I can't blame Kobo for any problems.

Regards,
David

My understanding is that Kobo makes the majority of money from selling books. Correct me if I am wrong. This is what I fail to understand about the big push for the access renderer. If they decide to go exclusively access than they cut off customers with non Kobo devices. Sure we can convert but even then some might resent the necessity and many people can't or won't. And it is not in a bookseller's interest to encourage conversion.

No skin off my nose, just do not understand the big picture I guess

Helen