Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > News

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-13-2010, 11:23 AM   #61
TGS
Country Member
TGS ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TGS ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TGS ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TGS ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TGS ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TGS ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TGS ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TGS ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TGS ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TGS ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TGS ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
TGS's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,058
Karma: 7676767
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Denmark
Device: Liseuse: Irex DR800. PRS 505 in the house, and the missus has an iPad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmaul1114 View Post
T
But the thing I like about the article is that it acknowledges that every screen type has it's pros and cons for reading.

Something the "if it glows it blows" crowd here doesn't seem to acknowledge. All have their pros and cons, and what's best for you will depend on your typical reading conditions, what you need out of your device etc.

I love my Kindle, but I get annoyed to death with all the "if it glows it blows nonsense" and saying devices like the iPad can't be used as readers because of the screen tech.
Hear, hear! I've been using a Dell XPS with a 13inch backlit LED screen for about a year. It's quite a nice screen, and when I'm writing and using references (I'm a postgrad) it's ideal to be able to flip between articles, books and the document that I'm writing. What it's not so good for is simply reading for extended periods. Not just the screen but the form factor restrict how long and where I can read. I'm about to take delivery of my first reader (IREX 800), which, I hope will give me the flexibility and staying power for extended periods of reading. But the point is that both devices still have their, complementary, uses.
TGS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 01:03 PM   #62
badbob001
Fanatic
badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
badbob001's Avatar
 
Posts: 556
Karma: 1102020
Join Date: Sep 2009
Device: Kindle Keyboard (rip), Kindle Voyage, Fire Tablet 10 '17, iPad '19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demas View Post
- Human eyes get strained by poor contrast, where LCD has the advantage.
- Human eyes get strained by dim lighting conditions, where LCD has the advantage.
When calibrating my LCD TV, I find that contrast greatly depends on the brightness of the backlight, where a low backlight setting may make it difficult to have good whites and good contrast.

Given currently accessible LCD and e-paper technology, can the backlight of a LCD display be set at a level that matches the light level, as deemed comfortable by the user, that is reflected off an e-paper display while also matching the contrast?
badbob001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 02-13-2010, 01:33 PM   #63
Demas
Connoisseur
Demas has learned how to buy an e-book online
 
Posts: 63
Karma: 90
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: Notion Ink Adam
Under just those constraints, sure, it's just expensive. The difference between CRT, AMOLED, LED- which are purely emissive- and e-ink, Mirasol, SiPix- which is purely reflective- is that all LCDs are transflective to a degree (around 33% ish). There are expensive proprietary LCDs out now which enhance this quality for precisely the characteristics you describe. Obviously they're on mobile devices rather than TVs which are intended for indoor use.

The problem is that you pay a huge premium for those proprietary (typically modified substrates, modified polarizer, tighter tolerances on the crystal layer, etc.) elements that only a small sector of the market wants that exceeds even the cost of current e-ink fabrication. Any engineering/manufacturing choice is the product of cost/feature ratio where e-ink just edges in (if it's battery life was worse than LCDs or if the form factor demanded twice the weight and volume... it's doubtful the purported eyestrain advantage would be enough to garner its adoption - put simply, eyestrain alone is not dispositive; cost, form, battery life, durability, etc. are all factored) and expensive transflective-focused LCD is edged out. However, based on your "currently accessible" constraint, sure, you can buy a $2000 LCD ereader with the qualities you mention.

Now if you're willing to either: 1) Expand the definition of "accessible" to "working tech available to OEMs and in prototype" OR 2) Defer "currently" by a few weeks, then 3Qi is a contender, of course. The real innovation of 3Qi isn't necessarily a new LCD feature but a cost effective way of getting it.
Demas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 01:46 PM   #64
Demas
Connoisseur
Demas has learned how to buy an e-book online
 
Posts: 63
Karma: 90
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: Notion Ink Adam
Popular Science did a feature on the tech explaining how it works, its origins, its benefits and its disadvantages, and its place in the market compared to competitors:

http://www.popsci.com/gadgets/articl...-paper-forever

The end of the article also reiterates the premise of the NYT article:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popular Science
For instance, it’s as much a myth that LCDs cause eyestrain because their backlights shine into your eyes like a flashlight as it is that reflective screens like E Ink’s are easier on the eyes just because they reflect light. “Light is light,” says VCD Sciences display consultant Lou Silverstein, a fellow of the Society for Information Display. “Your eyeball can’t tell whether it’s reflected or transmitted.”
And it should be noted that, as of the article, the contracts are already in place, that Pixel Qi is not publicly traded, and not seeking investors (given the paranoia earlier in this thread).

Despite this, the article acknowledges that reading is a subjective experience where people will like what they like.
Demas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 01:55 PM   #65
dmaul1114
Wizard
dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,300
Karma: 1121709
Join Date: Feb 2009
Device: Amazon Kindle 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGS View Post
Not just the screen but the form factor restrict how long and where I can read.
Yeah, form factor is the main reason I don't do much reading on my laptop. The LED screen doesn't bother my eyes (same with my LED desktop monitor at work).

I stare at them for hours reading stuff online, writing and other work etc. and don't have too much eye fatigue issues.

The laptop just isn't comfortable to curl up and read a novel on, or read a research study, like my Kindle, a real book, or print out is.

So I don't think I'd have much issue reading on something like the iPad. Plus, unlike the guy above I'm not reading for 8 hours etc. Usually 30-60 minutes in any one stretch, so that helps as well.

I love my Kindle, but more for the convenience of e-books in general than the screen. The long battery life is the main perk of the screen for me, as it is nice to just have to charge it every couple of weeks.
dmaul1114 is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 02-13-2010, 03:16 PM   #66
DawnFalcon
Banned
DawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with others
 
Posts: 2,094
Karma: 2682
Join Date: Aug 2009
Device: N/A
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demas View Post
And it should be noted that, as of the article, the contracts are already in place, that Pixel Qi is not publicly traded, and not seeking investors (given the paranoia earlier in this thread).
Paranoia lol. You're the one doing that with "publically traded". No, it's a simple PR blitz, as used by quite a few companies in the past. And afaik it's utterly and completely unconvincing without at least production samples, if not reviews. That they were unable to show any screens in public at CES is telling, of course, for the timeline of them reaching the market.

And much of the issue with cheaper LCD's is, of course, the CCFL backlighting. Oh, and I'd note that older IPS screens are actually less reflective, which is why they're so hard to view in direct sunlight and they've required a more powerful backlight, which is why takeup of them for mobile devices has been slow before e-IPS came along last year.

Last edited by DawnFalcon; 02-13-2010 at 03:22 PM.
DawnFalcon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 03:24 PM   #67
CleverClothe
Guru
CleverClothe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.CleverClothe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.CleverClothe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.CleverClothe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.CleverClothe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.CleverClothe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.CleverClothe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.CleverClothe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.CleverClothe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.CleverClothe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.CleverClothe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 618
Karma: 493394
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Device: iRex iLiad, Onyx Boox 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demas View Post
You didn't provide a balanced view however...
- Human eyes get strained by poor contrast, where LCD has the advantage.
- Human eyes get strained by dim lighting conditions, where LCD has the advantage.
- Human eyes get less strained when looking at poor text rendering which can occur with low DPI, small manufacturing lots, only 16 levels of grey, and proprietary software coming from consumer e-ink devices as opposed to LCD APIs for mainstream OSes (this very issue occurred with the Kindle 2, though eventually patched).
- Human eyes won't get strained by anything with a high refresh rate, including LCD... equivocated ones with poor refresh rate is like equivocating low-quality e-paper solutions like TFT with e-ink.
- Human eyes get strained with too little detail in attempting to resolve text, but neither too much nor too little detail is trouble for a versatile LCD which can use non-native resolutions.
My experience has been exactly the opposite.

- Poor contrast hasn't caused me eye strain (though it can slow my reading).
- Dim lighting conditions don't strain my yes, but it does affect my speed and accuracy.
- Haven't had any problem with low PPI. Infact, my new Onyx Boox has a much higher resolution than my current LCD monitor, 167 ppi vs 86.27 ppi (according to an online calculator). Of course, it does only have 8 (soon 16) shades of grey, so it will have more trouble with certain fonts.
- While low refresh rates do cause lots of problems, having a high refresh rate doesn't mean that you wont have problems. Besides, an E-Ink screen refreshes as fast as your light source, which approaches infinity for direct or indirect sunlight.
CleverClothe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 03:52 PM   #68
Demas
Connoisseur
Demas has learned how to buy an e-book online
 
Posts: 63
Karma: 90
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: Notion Ink Adam
The issue is that you are contrasting empirical evidence versus subjective experience.

I'm merely stating: a) Causes of eyestrain; b) How another technology empirically mitigates that.

...to balance a similar list geared expressly towards e-ink, which, I notice, you're not going after. I appreciate you at least qualifying it as personal experience, but that's all it is.

For example, "Causes of water boiling" a) Molecules are excited; b1) Via convection; b2) via microwave bombardment

You're essentially saying, "Water that is boiled by convection tastes different so clearly microwave bombardment doesn't boil water."

As for the refresh rate issue, as you say, it's just as present in artificial lighting for reflection based technology and the truism that "doesn't mean you won't have problems" doesn't further the discussion (because one can just as easily say, "Just because you're using e-ink in daylight doesn't mean you won't have problems") in any empirical way... so why stack the deck when conversing?
Demas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 04:09 PM   #69
DawnFalcon
Banned
DawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with othersDawnFalcon plays well with others
 
Posts: 2,094
Karma: 2682
Join Date: Aug 2009
Device: N/A
You're simply comparing salted and distilled water, and wondering why the results are not matching. *shrugs*
DawnFalcon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 04:21 PM   #70
Kali Yuga
Professional Contrarian
Kali Yuga ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Kali Yuga ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Kali Yuga ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Kali Yuga ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Kali Yuga ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Kali Yuga ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Kali Yuga ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Kali Yuga ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Kali Yuga ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Kali Yuga ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Kali Yuga ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Kali Yuga's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,045
Karma: 3289631
Join Date: Mar 2009
Device: Kindle 4 No Touchie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demas View Post
The issue is that you are contrasting empirical evidence versus subjective experience.
OK, quick question then. Have there been any (presumably recent) empirical studies that compare paper, eInk / epapers, LCD's, and CRT's, in terms of both eyestrain and reading comprehension?

The only studies I've seen so far are a bit older, were mostly paper vs CRT, in which CRT's fared poorly with both eye strain and reading comprehension.
Kali Yuga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 04:28 PM   #71
badbob001
Fanatic
badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.badbob001 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
badbob001's Avatar
 
Posts: 556
Karma: 1102020
Join Date: Sep 2009
Device: Kindle Keyboard (rip), Kindle Voyage, Fire Tablet 10 '17, iPad '19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demas View Post
Now if you're willing to either: 1) Expand the definition of "accessible" to "working tech available to OEMs and in prototype" OR 2) Defer "currently" by a few weeks, then 3Qi is a contender, of course. The real innovation of 3Qi isn't necessarily a new LCD feature but a cost effective way of getting it.
Let's limit the scope to things that are close to or in consumer hands. We have seen prototypes of holographic storage and 400dpi e-ink displays, but they either are hampered by expensive or difficult technology. As for pixelqi, we still need to see it released to consumers before we can judge it in comparison to other devices. Just because a technology is licensed by third parties doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be a hit for the consumer, though obviously it'll have a better chance than something existing only in a lab (Microsoft's Origami tablet form factor got released by several OEMs but was basically DOA and the Apple TV box didn't become the ipod for TVs).

If you're going to compare pixelqi to e-ink, then I would guess it would be best to compare them with pixelqi in reflective mode (else it'll just be a comparison to a backlit LCD screen). I would be interested to know if given the same room lighting conditions, how do the two screens compare in terms of contrast. I suspect e-ink is more reflective since the reflection occurs near the surface as opposed to LCD with the reflection layer in the back (I wonder if LCD reflectivity gets worse as resolution increases due less light getting through the denser components).

Is there any argument against the viewing quality of paper itself and I mean the quality of a laser printer print out? Who wouldn't love a nice white page with dark letters? Now, which technology better mimics the viewing properties of paper (lets discount, for now, stuff such as video, cost, and power since this topic is about eye strain)?

Last edited by badbob001; 02-13-2010 at 04:48 PM.
badbob001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 05:13 PM   #72
TallMomof2
Kindlephilia
TallMomof2 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TallMomof2 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TallMomof2 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TallMomof2 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TallMomof2 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TallMomof2 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TallMomof2 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TallMomof2 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TallMomof2 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TallMomof2 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.TallMomof2 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
TallMomof2's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,017
Karma: 1139255
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Snowpacolypse 2010
Device: Too many to count
I have really bad eyes and what works best for me is paper or eInk in a reasonably well lit room. Clip on reading lights work so-so for me but still a bit better than backlit LCD/LED. Even with a backlit display I still need to be in a reasonably well lit room. My eyes fatigue faster with backlit displays. This is not empirical evidence as I'm sure that any testing has been done with people with far better eyesight than mine.

I am curious to see future improvements in display technology and hopefully my eyes will benefit.
TallMomof2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 05:40 PM   #73
fugazied
Wizard
fugazied once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.fugazied once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.fugazied once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.fugazied once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.fugazied once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.fugazied once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.fugazied once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.fugazied once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.fugazied once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.fugazied once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.fugazied once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.
 
fugazied's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,305
Karma: 1958
Join Date: Jan 2009
Device: iPod Touch
There's just no way the iPad will be as good as an e-ink device for outdoors reading. If you expect to be reading outdoors frequently, then an e-ink device is the way to go (like the Kindle)..

90% of my reading is in-doors and I have no problems looking at LCD screens for long periods, so the iPad will be fine for me.
fugazied is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 06:14 PM   #74
dmaul1114
Wizard
dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.dmaul1114 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,300
Karma: 1121709
Join Date: Feb 2009
Device: Amazon Kindle 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugazied View Post
There's just no way the iPad will be as good as an e-ink device for outdoors reading. If you expect to be reading outdoors frequently, then an e-ink device is the way to go (like the Kindle)..

90% of my reading is in-doors and I have no problems looking at LCD screens for long periods, so the iPad will be fine for me.
Same, except probably 99.9% of my reading is indoors.

I'm not sold on the iPad yet, but not because of the screen. I mainly want a tablet for stylus markup/highlight so I'll have to see how 3rd party apps and a capacitive stylus end up working on that front.

My girlfriend is very interested in one for pdf/academic reading and doesn't care about markup, so maybe she'll get one and I'll have a good chance to play around with one then.
dmaul1114 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 07:11 PM   #75
Demas
Connoisseur
Demas has learned how to buy an e-book online
 
Posts: 63
Karma: 90
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: Notion Ink Adam
Quote:
Originally Posted by badbob001 View Post
Let's limit the scope to things that are close to or in consumer hands. . . lets discount, for now, stuff such as video, cost, and power since this topic is about eye strain?
By excluding the very factors that allow something into a consumers hands you've somewhat undermined the discussion you want to have, which I presume, you only want to come out as e-ink. Cost matters, rich media matters, power matters because all of those things affect the end users device, what we read and how we read. The very reason that e-ink is only for long form passive reading is because it isn't sufficiently responsive to do anything else. The very reason that LCD, to date, hasn't been found in slates as light as e-readers is because its power consumption is too high.

But in any case, if you want to ignore cost restraints, LCD can provide the closest paper experience if purpose built to do that... it's just cost prohibitive. LCD can do it, but it'd be stupid to do it... you'd add diffuse layer on the glass to scatter light, you'd build a crazy expensive substrate for perfect viewing angles, you'd get perfect whites and blacks, etc... but you'd also go broke for a product no one wants at that price.

By contrast, e-ink is what it is. No one goes out and buys grey recycled paper and takes their pristine black & white documents to photocopy onto the grey paper for readability reasons. No one takes a magazine page and photocopies it to the grey paper set to a lower DPI in order to increase readability. No one takes those photocopies and continues to photocopy them in order to lose edge detail for the sake of readability. People DO photocopy faded documents and crank up to contrast for the sake of readability. These are all traits where market LCD is superior to e-ink and more readable for it.

Last edited by Demas; 02-13-2010 at 07:16 PM.
Demas is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Display Technology and Eye-strain kjk News 56 09-24-2010 05:50 PM
Eye-Strain on LCDs is a Myth (or missunderstood) schmolch General Discussions 119 04-15-2010 05:15 PM
Readers & Eye Strain Big Kev Which one should I buy? 9 01-26-2010 01:25 AM
Eye strain with 505? wallflower75 Sony Reader 14 08-26-2009 04:08 PM
Eye Strain on the Kindle markbot Amazon Kindle 22 08-24-2009 02:18 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:31 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.