Anonymity in Best Novel MobileRead Polls

[Catlady]

Since this thread has been split off, I no longer feel I need to restrain myself from additional comment.

Why are we using avatars to mask our identities in the first place if not to maintain at least an illusion of privacy? Certainly in a book-related forum we are for the most part exchanging only the most innocuous of opinions, why are we hiding behind avatars?

Why was the complementary poll asking for demographic information planned to be private from the start? Why should one's age, level of education, nationality be assumed to be private information? After all, we're mostly not using real names. Yet the privacy interest there is respected. Why the pushback on wanting privacy when it comes to opinion questions?

There seems to be an assumption that people who vote in a poll will also have commented in the thread the poll is a part of. But certainly it does not require much imagination to realize that people who don't comment might still decide to vote anonymously.

BearMountainBooks mentioned control. Maybe that's the key. We all of us have to give up so much privacy these days just to live in the modern world. So when I can exert even a little bit of control, or make it even a tiny bit harder for personal information to be collected, I do it.

Privacy should be the default. The burden should always be on those who seek to erode privacy, not on those who wish to maintain it. I don't need a reason to want privacy; you need a reason to take it away from me.

[John F]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

For those wishing anonymity, you could PM me your vote and I could vote for you using my moderator powers, so that your user name didn't appear in the vote. You wouldn't, of course, be anonymous to me, but would that be sufficient anonymity to allow you to take part if the vote wasn't generally anonymous?

Maybe a software mod that allows an option to let you vote anonymously, and an option when setting up the poll for allowing anonymous votes?

And maybe a software mod to allow posting anonymously.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

Perhaps you should not be reading my post as being a comparison, but rather be reading it as one giving examples of the type of experiences that may make some posters wary in forums and elsewhere. Such experiences elsewhere, which can involve polls/voting (I mentioned unions and clubs), may just result in a conditioning that leads one to make a general rule of never voting when ones own vote is visible. Also the reading is that I, for one, am not prepared to make judgments about nor question any particular poster's decision regarding their own privacy.

In the end, if you are baffled, I suspect that you will remain so.

A small point of clarification: nowhere have I meant to infer that, as you state, if a user should make a post about a book that they are entitled to demand (or expect) their username to be hidden. For myself, I have openly posted about some of the nominated books, however, if the poll was to be public I would not be voting, and if it were to be private I may not be voting for the books I have discussed. Sorry if that, as I suspect it will, increases your level of bafflement .

If the cases cannot be compared, then why are they relevant?

I am aware that you did not say a user should be able to post anonymously. That was MY comparison, because I feel it is a logical extension of the desire to vote anonymously about a topic that is central to the "forum" aspect of this particular forum.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Except people should always have a right to privacy and they shouldn't have to explain that to anyone. I had a friend who was stalked one time. Being able to remain anonymous even on a poll gave her a sense of control. Sure, it's nice if everyone wants to chat and whatnot, but if someone wants to remain anon, it shouldn't be looked down upon or judged. Let it be. There are many reasons to remain private.

Also, as for cheating, I used to run cover polls on my blog before a new release. I didn't even think to mark "vote only once." Well, good grief. I had people voting 20 times! So I marked "can only vote once." Next thing I knew people were writing to tell me they went to the library so they could log on there and vote again!

Not that it matters to me overmuch. The polls were in good fun. But some people do get invested in their own choices. Shrug. I don't judge that either. It's generally not going to throw things off by much and many times you can tell the votes are stacked and account for it when trying to tally the results.

You have a right to privacy. You can join the forum without giving any personally identifying information. You can share as much or as little as you like. But once you start blabbing all over the Reading Recommendations forum about your taste in books, you can't keep a lid on that -- even if the poll is anonymous.
I have no problem with people wanting to be anonymous. I just don't understand how you can both be anonymous and express your opinions. (See @gmw, post #40)
(Although "you" as a MobileRead account need not be associated to a specific real-world individual.)


Now I have a question for you. At what point in your misreading of my post did you decide that I don't want people to have the right to privacy?

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Now I have a question for you. At what point in your misreading of my post did you decide that I don't want people to have the right to privacy?

I did not misread your post, but your conclusion about my statement is incorrect. My statement stands alone, with or without your argument, having noting to do with you, and is my statement, not yours: People should have a right to privacy and not have to explain why they wish to be anonymous (so long as they are not up to anything illegal, nefarious or hurtful to someone and in the case of book discussions we don't need to go and elaborate every possible contortion). It may not make sense how a person decides to attempt privacy, but if they don't wish to vote in a public poll and then DO post their opinions publicly, that's okay. We all want choices and we want to exercise those choices.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I did not misread your post, but your conclusion about my statement is incorrect. My statement stands alone, with or without your argument, having noting to do with you, and is my statement, not yours: [...]

Then I apologize for assuming when you quoted me, that you were responding to me.

[AnotherCat]

Another matter that has not been mentioned is that anonymous polls are generally recognized as being more accurate than public ones.

I'll start by giving some other examples where this is so (Eschwartz, as these examples are not this poll you can omit this first bit because you will not see the relevance ).

I mentioned the likes of clubs and unions before. If one has any experience of hand raising public polls in these and other places, such as the workplace, one can see the effect on voting behavior very easily, just by the way people look around with uncertainty on their faces, not wanting to find themselves to be with a significant minority. Many people tend to hope to vote with the majority (or abstain if they are stronger in their views but don't want to be too much with the minority) because it is more comfortable to do so. In an poll having anonymity this effect is much less likely to happen.

The effect also exists when employees are questioned in an exercise seeking views, even when alone with the questioner, especially if it is an organizational or behavioral related question rather than a technical one. The employee will often just give the response which is most comfortable with respect to how they wish to be perceived as a person or to avoid confrontation rather than state what they really think. Any manager worth his salt knows that the answers an employee gives in such situations may not be what the employee really thinks and becomes attuned to the body language, etc. which signals that, and understands the trust needed to get openness.

Witness statements are another area where there is non-anonymity and are well known to be skewed because of that (but not that alone).

So, if one accepts that voting and seeking of views in an non anonymous situation colors the responses one gets, then what about these book polls?

My view is, and I have conducted business type surveys and many, many interviews, particularly associated with organizational change (and remuneration where it is well known that people often exaggerate remuneration 'cos it makes them more comfortable if they do so), that the poll will be skewed. By how much I do not know but we have already seen some stating they will not vote if it is public and I would bet my cats on the fact that there will be many others who will not vote but have not said so, because to say so will submit them to the discomfort of being disagreed with (or for some other reason). So the poll is already skewed towards representing the views of one particular group.

So what might happen in these polls? Taking the second decade of books I might like to vote for Proust's 'In Search of Lost Time', say, but decide to vote for 'The Thirty-nine Steps' my second choice, say, because I don't really want to come across as a "literary snob". In fact I have already had a snide comment along those lines aimed at me in these forums, so I might, say, feel inclined to vote in a way that softens that perspective.

Or, I may wish to vote for 'Sons and Lovers' but decide that I do not wish to be publically associated with erotica (albeit mild) and so vote for my second, or even my third choice should my second choice have been Proust. Etc., etc.

I am sure there will be other behaviors which will modify how some, perhaps many, people vote.

I know that in polls and similar situations, that if I reflect honestly on my motivations I find them to be towards being skewed, and I know from working with many others that behavior is commonplace (maybe universal if subconscious motivation is included). So, hands up those here who for reasons of their own comfort, or for the comfort of those asking the question, whether in a public poll or not (e.g. the workplace), have given a response to that question that does not truly represent their view on the matter. No lying now .

[gmw]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

[...] So, hands up those here who for reasons of their own comfort, or for the comfort of those asking the question, whether in a public poll or not (e.g. the workplace), have given a response to that question that does not truly represent their view on the matter. No lying now .

I never lie ... whoops, that was a bit of a fib.

The honesty aspect cuts both ways. Anonymous polls are subject to jokes and pranks (some people do have a strange sense of humour), to stacking, to random selection, and so on. I'm not particularly concerned about stacking in this case, but the other problems may be an issue (perhaps partly dependent on the volume of votes we actually get). And while open votes may influence people to vote particular ways for appearances sake, there is also an element of pressure to vote for something the person is willing to defend. How do these conflicting influences come out in the end? No idea.

For reasons like those you have cited, it did occur to me that some nominations may actually benefit from anonymous votes - several of my nominations are quite generally popular rather than necessarily being literary masterpieces (Tarzan of the Apes, for example). These nominations may receive more votes merely because more people have read them (perhaps). This is one reason why I thought an open vote would be good, as it lets each of us make our own interpretation of the results based on what we know of the voters.

[GA Russell]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Since this thread has been split off, I no longer feel I need to restrain myself from additional comment.

Why are we using avatars to mask our identities in the first place if not to maintain at least an illusion of privacy?

Catlady, did I ever tell you that my avatar is my high school yearbook picture?

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

Catlady, did I ever tell you that my avatar is my high school yearbook picture?

So is mine.

[BearMountainBooks]

And that's me on the book cover!!! I'm driving the ambulance in Executive Sick Days too. Bad hair day, there so I had to roll the window up.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Since this thread has been split off, I no longer feel I need to restrain myself from additional comment.

Why are we using avatars to mask our identities in the first place if not to maintain at least an illusion of privacy? Certainly in a book-related forum we are for the most part exchanging only the most innocuous of opinions, why are we hiding behind avatars?

There's a perfectly valid reason to want to know what people's favourite books are. I'm sure that all the regulars in the "Reading Recommendations" forum have come to know whose tastes in reading agree with their own. I know, for example, that if pdurrant enjoys a mystery story then it's very likely that I'm going to enjoy it to, because he and I share the same tastes in mystery books. Speaking personally, therefore, I'd like to know who recommends which book, so that I can judge which recommended books I'm likely to enjoy myself.

Given that the whole purpose of the reading recs forum is to share our reading recommendations with fellow MR members, it seems a little peculiar to wish for anonymity in making those recommendations.

Just my personal opinion, of course.

That's me as well .. .. in about 50 years or so. Alas poor Hamlet you knew him well.*

It has been settled that these votes will be anonymous, no? I'm more interested in the discussion anyway. I hope that will turn out to be more robust that it has so far worked out to be. Real spirited discussion as to why a book is the "best" of a decade, something beyond "It's just the best and that's that."

*I can alter at will since it's already a misquote.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

It has been settled that these votes will be anonymous, no?

The first two are certainly anonymous, as they already exist and it's not possible to change a poll from anonymous to open.

I expect that I will make the remaining polls anonymous too, unless someone comes up with a really convincing* argument.





*Convincing to those who currently want them anonymous, that is!

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

The first two are certainly anonymous, as they already exist and it's not possible to change a poll from anonymous to open.

I expect that I will make the remaining polls anonymous too, unless someone comes up with a really convincing* argument.





*Convincing to those who currently want them anonymous, that is!

It's your poll; you're the only one who needs to be convinced. Everyone else can either participate or not participate in the poll as they wish.