Ebooks on bittorrent! - Page 5

Patricia · 12-09-2008, 10:43 AM

Thanks, Dale. You've expressed what I feel too.

tompe · 12-09-2008, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

The people who generate the books would like to have some control over their work, which is considerable. It seems to me that the idea of massdownloading causes a lack of control. They will no longer feel that they can understand and be appreciated for the work but the work just becomes another number in hoarding hundreds or thousands of books. The system works today with every download representing a vote of confidence in the person doing the work and shows interest in the types of books being worked on. While the claim is that there may be a way to statistically figure out what books are being downloaded with additional effort the idea of mass downloading means that many may not ever read the eBooks so whats the point?

This is related to something that bothers me. I think that status of the uploads here are very unclear. Can you for example take a copy and make whatever you want with it? Or has the uploader some legal control over the copy? I am convinced that the wishes from the uploaders are very diverse so I think it would be a good idea to state them in the description of the book. It wuld also be good to state possible licenses of the upload (like which variant of creative commons).

acidzebra · 12-09-2008, 11:01 AM

The "control" is complete illusion - nothing stops a determined person from downloading every single book on MR and then creating a torrent of it. Nothing stops a person from getting a book here and then giving it to another person.

Also I find control a little shaky term, does a proofreader gain control and a say over the content of a book and how it is distributed? (in other ways than the immediately obvious). Remember, you are not building on or otherwise adding to a work in the public domain, you are (and again, I do not wish to shortchange anyone on their massive work), "fixing up" a book.

Why don't you add a little extra page stating "carefully proofread, formatted, and uploaded by X"?

vivaldirules · 12-09-2008, 11:01 AM

Your comment on hoarding, Dale, makes me want to comment on one observation I've made which only barely relates to the discussion at hand. That is that the number of downloads of a book is very strongly correlated with the time it's available and much less with the author or subject. That is, you can post a book by an obscure author on an obscure subject and it will be downloaded at least half as often as a recognized classic posted at the same time and the downloading begins almost immediately after posting. This suggests to me that many downloads are by people who either want to have a quick look just to see what it is or else want to possess the books (all of them). In either case, whether they are actually ever read is unknown. I'm not trying to make a judgement about those behaviours, just pointing them out. I personally don't mind so long as nothing "sinister" is being done with them (and no, I'm not suggesting they are).

ProDigit · 12-09-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

I think charging racism is a bit strong. No one I heard was saying anything against you personally about downloading whatever you want. Just because people don't agree with you I do not believe it should descend to claiming personal attacks.

The people who generate the books would like to have some control over their work, which is considerable. It seems to me that the idea of massdownloading causes a lack of control. They will no longer feel that they can understand and be appreciated for the work but the work just becomes another number in hoarding hundreds or thousands of books. The system works today with every download representing a vote of confidence in the person doing the work and shows interest in the types of books being worked on. While the claim is that there may be a way to statistically figure out what books are being downloaded with additional effort the idea of mass downloading means that many may not ever read the eBooks so whats the point?

Dale

Honestly, current system does not give you that control you desire...
When I'd love to download classics, there is a guy who uploads all the classics like Alice in Wonderland, and Robinson Croesoe etc...
I can download all the books that that user has uploaded, and I'm very gratefull to that user for uploading these books!
Because this user helps me find those old and great stories!

However, most users upload various types of books without really having a line in their uploads.
Because there are so many clicks, me and many other users really rarely spend time reading the comments of books they want to have.

In the end it comes all down to getting your book, not reading a forum (the book downloadsection that is). I think both are, and should be separated.
You upload the book, I download it.
If I want to, I have a way of saying 'thank you' through the forum, or maybe even comment on some errors on the book.
Multi clicking is not really going to help you being more popular.
A reputation is something you'll have to build up with time.

As much as Patricia and I differ on the topic of multi downloading, I respect her for uploading so many books!
So, either way, you will get credit from people who do like your work, they will automatically find you. But I think there's no way you can force someone to 'respect your work' by making him have to do the multi clicks.

And you may be right; we live in a consumption society, where ease of use, and receiving everything in a speedy way, matters!
Unlike say, 30 years ago when life was more at ease.

If you really want some control for the work you've done, then you should save that book on a local server, and ask a question about the resume you have given, to see if the user really has read all you written about the book, and ask to see if he knows that you have uploaded that book, before he can download it.
I'm sure many will be less gratefull, to you this way! So it works the opposite way.

But for the most part, people are not interested in who edited the book, or uploaded the file...
Like I mentioned, I'm happy about this one user who uploads all the famous stories, but that's really it.
I want to read the book, not comments on the book, or see who has changed the formatting / layout or screened the book.
You can reserve a full page in a book to do that, or heck, use the majority of the book's pages with your name in it!
But I'm not sure that would be a good idea...

I don't expect anyone to read my resume or see my name with my books neither.
I only wish if they find errors they would mention it. So far no responses, which means most people are generally happy with my uploads (though they are far from perfection).

And one user has given me karma for a book I've edited. What more would you want?

Andybaby · 12-10-2008, 01:56 AM

i like having a big library of books on my computer because it makes it 20x easier looking for book when you already have it.

if a files been proofread all the better, but it doesnt keep me from reading a book with obvious OCR errors. but then i didnt join this forum to get books, i joined to learn more about ereaders and software relating to ereaders.

mtravellerh · 12-10-2008, 09:15 AM

May I throw in my opinion, too?

I do assemble quite a lot of books and I wouldn't appreciate it in the least if one of those books would be drowned in a mass. They are, in my mind, very individual entities that deserve a personal decision for them (a decision just for this specific book). That is quite important for me and I see it as a little gratification for my work on those books. I do this assembling as good as I can and I am quite proud of every single book.

I do not want my books to be part of any mass package or anonymous torrent. If you want them, come here, check the uploads and get it, a little bit like buying a book but without the money.

That's how I see things.

JayCeeEll · 12-10-2008, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidzebra

The "control" is complete illusion - nothing stops a determined person from downloading every single book on MR and then creating a torrent of it.

If the owners/members of MR don't create a number of good quality torrents there is nothing stopping someone else doing it badly. As the media publishers are finding out, once you have something digitised and on the internet it is out there forever.

Digital content has no value, convenience has value.

Do the job first and do the job well and you may retain some control, leave it to others and "poof" any control you want is gone.

I vote to torrent the MR files by Author and Subject within format.

Any chance of a poll?

Alexander Turcic · 12-10-2008, 05:39 PM

Nothing wrong with torrents per se, but I think we must respect the wishes of those whom I count among our most active and contributing members. Whatever their reasons may be, I don't want us to alienate anybody by officially ignoring their wishes and spreading the books through another medium.

Amalthia · 12-10-2008, 06:13 PM

I like the idea of being able to mass download the LRF books. Downloading books from MobileRead isn't exactly point and click.

However, the problem with torrents is how do you incorporate updates? Or add the new releases?

right now I don't download books from MobileRead because it takes too long to find what I'm looking for and then to get to the download page (that and picking the format...) So it's a rather frustrating experience. I don't mind browsing to see what is interesting to read or what's new but having found an author I like it would be nice to have the option to hit a button and download all their works at once.

Bittorrents do have some advantages over hosting the files natively. In that for large collections the bandwidth is spread out amongst the users so it doesn't incur step costs to the host server. however, it has some disadavantages as well such as once the torrent is created and people start downloading if a file is updated later you can't just add that to the torrent it would have to be added to another one. Unless torrent technology has improved since I last looked.

I don't get why some of the uploaders are against the idea of mass downloading? I've read through this whole thread and I still don't get the objections. I don't read what the uploader has to say in the first place about the book. I normally check out book summary and file format and download. I've never partipated in any discussion regarding the books I have downloaded from the site. And just because there is no torrent available it's not likely to change my habits into participating. Whereas, I would have really liked to have some way to mass download the stories or find the stories more easily.

Basically, I think the people who want to participate will particapate regardless of the status of how people download the books hosted at mobile read.

tompe · 12-10-2008, 06:46 PM

You do not notice updates with the system today. Or can you get and RSS feed or email when a book changes? I downloaded all books by certain authors some time ago and I would really appreciate some way to know if updates are available. That would require that I can see from my copy which version I have.

I also find it to hard to find out if a book by a specific author exist here. Or is there some search trick you can use to find out that?

Elfwreck · 12-10-2008, 07:06 PM

At home, I have dialup internet.

Torrents are a godsend. I have torrented 5mb creative commons works, and 95mb videos freely shared by the creator. 5mb takes me about 30 minutes of download time, normally--if it doesn't crash. And in the meantime, I can't do browsing or it slows the download. I can torrent it, which takes much longer, but frees up my online activity.

95mb? I can't download direct at all. Whole install CDs, music by Radiohead, packs of public-domain works... I can download them, a few mb per night, for as long as it takes to get them done.

While I'm on dialup because I'm a luddite freak (I don't have the hardware to switch & have been to lazy/confused to figure it out), there are parts of the US and the rest of the world where high-speed internet is just not available. Torrents, even very small torrents, are very useful things.

Torrents of packs of books--labeled something like "20 Classics From Mobileread" or "Mobileread Mystery And Horror Collection"--selected sets, not "everything available in the sci-fi topic" (but perhaps "Mobileread's most downloaded sci-fi books") might be a good thing

--> Allow new ebook readers to grab a selection of books on a topic of interest, instead of grabbing one, deciding they don't like it, and deciding it's too much hassle to wade through a forum to try to find one they'd like.

--> Allow collectors to get a whole set at once. (Yes, they miss out on updates. However, they do that if they grab the set here, too, and don't check back for later versions.) Especially useful for experienced ebook readers who love the formatting people use here, but already have several versions of many public-domain classics. They may not bother collecting "the good version" if it's a one-at-a-time, search-and-download process.

--> Putting "mobileread" in the name of the torrent, and including a txt file inside describing the forums and policies, allows people who'd otherwise never notice the place existed to find it. (Not that mobileread is hard to find... IF you are looking for ebook reader information. If you're looking for "sherlock holmes stories," not so much.)

--> Having an "official" (or at least sanctioned) forum collection cuts down on the chances of unofficial, unsanctioned sets popping up. There's no geek cred points for making the new, ripoff version of something that's already available in another form--but there are points for taking single-download, one-at-a-time files and collecting them into useful sets.

Amalthia · 12-10-2008, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Torrents of packs of books--labeled something like "20 Classics From Mobileread" or "Mobileread Mystery And Horror Collection"--selected sets, not "everything available in the sci-fi topic" (but perhaps "Mobileread's most downloaded sci-fi books") might be a good thing

--> Allow new ebook readers to grab a selection of books on a topic of interest, instead of grabbing one, deciding they don't like it, and deciding it's too much hassle to wade through a forum to try to find one they'd like.

--> Allow collectors to get a whole set at once. (Yes, they miss out on updates. However, they do that if they grab the set here, too, and don't check back for later versions.) Especially useful for experienced ebook readers who love the formatting people use here, but already have several versions of many public-domain classics. They may not bother collecting "the good version" if it's a one-at-a-time, search-and-download process.

--> Putting "mobileread" in the name of the torrent, and including a txt file inside describing the forums and policies, allows people who'd otherwise never notice the place existed to find it. (Not that mobileread is hard to find... IF you are looking for ebook reader information. If you're looking for "sherlock holmes stories," not so much.)

--> Having an "official" (or at least sanctioned) forum collection cuts down on the chances of unofficial, unsanctioned sets popping up. There's no geek cred points for making the new, ripoff version of something that's already available in another form--but there are points for taking single-download, one-at-a-time files and collecting them into useful sets.

I think I'll let you do all the talking next time.

well said and you have some very good points. I'd forgotten about dial up users.

Dr. Drib · 12-10-2008, 07:33 PM

As long as we're having a discussion on this subject, I would have to say "no" to my books being distributed through a torrent site.

I make my books available specifically through MobileRead and wish to support MobileRead in their efforts to make available my "work" (if you will), in addition to making the work of so many other contributors available to members of this community. This has nothing to do with being a moderator. I would continue making books available for as long as I sensed they were welcome here, regardless of a percieved "status."

I would say that many of us are very proud of our work in assembling books made specifically for this site. Making the books available through another site through "torrenting" diffuses their worth in the eyes of this assembler.

We also run into legalities among some books, depending upon what country one is living in when downloading, and MobileRead - as a community - works very hard to maintain and observe those legal lines.

These are just my opinions.

Don

RWood · 12-10-2008, 09:11 PM

If you go to the MobileRead Wiki and select Notable eBook Uploads from the main page you are offered a selection of three of MobileRead's most popular collections -- Charles Dickens, Jane Austen, and the Harvard Classics. Selecting any one of these presents a page detailing each volume available and the formats that it is available. The links take you directly to the current version where you may download the book. It is not perfect; but, it does provide a service that keeps you from searching through the index.

On the topic of "collectors", some time ago Jon (JSWolf) noted that someone had downloaded almost all of the books that MobileRead had provided at the point and posted them on the darknet.

I've posted a few books here at MobileRead and I do monitor people's feedback about the books. I do check on how many have viewed the thread and how many have downloaded a certain book in a certain format. This is how the IMP format was added. We posted some and the download counts were high enough to justify their own section. Today when I post a new book at MobileRead I make it in three versions -- LRF, PRC, and IMP. If we had distributed it via a torrent, we would never have known that there were many people interested in IMP format books.

MobileRead has implemented a service for Kindle (and all other direct connect Mobipocket users) whereby they can download a freshly made copy of an index to the MobileRead PRC books and review them as if browsing through a card catalog. Should they see on that they like they can click on it and directly download it to their reader.

SO for my three cents worth (inflation you know), I do not favor torrents for the MobileRead ebooks.

12-09-2008, 11:01 AM	#63
acidzebra Liseuse Lover Posts: 869 Karma: 1035404 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Netherlands Device: PRS-505	The "control" is complete illusion - nothing stops a determined person from downloading every single book on MR and then creating a torrent of it. Nothing stops a person from getting a book here and then giving it to another person. Also I find control a little shaky term, does a proofreader gain control and a say over the content of a book and how it is distributed? (in other ways than the immediately obvious). Remember, you are not building on or otherwise adding to a work in the public domain, you are (and again, I do not wish to shortchange anyone on their massive work), "fixing up" a book. Why don't you add a little extra page stating "carefully proofread, formatted, and uploaded by X"? Last edited by acidzebra; 12-09-2008 at 11:03 AM.

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12-09-2008, 10:43 AM	#61
Patricia Reader Posts: 11,504 Karma: 8720163 Join Date: May 2007 Location: South Wales, UK Device: Sony PRS-500, PRS-505, Asus EEEpc 4G	Thanks, Dale. You've expressed what I feel too.

12-09-2008, 11:01 AM	#64
vivaldirules When's Doughnut Day? Posts: 10,059 Karma: 13675475 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Houston, TX, US Device: Sony PRS-505, iPad	Your comment on hoarding, Dale, makes me want to comment on one observation I've made which only barely relates to the discussion at hand. That is that the number of downloads of a book is very strongly correlated with the time it's available and much less with the author or subject. That is, you can post a book by an obscure author on an obscure subject and it will be downloaded at least half as often as a recognized classic posted at the same time and the downloading begins almost immediately after posting. This suggests to me that many downloads are by people who either want to have a quick look just to see what it is or else want to possess the books (all of them). In either case, whether they are actually ever read is unknown. I'm not trying to make a judgement about those behaviours, just pointing them out. I personally don't mind so long as nothing "sinister" is being done with them (and no, I'm not suggesting they are).

12-10-2008, 01:56 AM	#66
Andybaby Wizard Posts: 1,279 Karma: 1002683 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: New York Device: PRS-700	i like having a big library of books on my computer because it makes it 20x easier looking for book when you already have it. if a files been proofread all the better, but it doesnt keep me from reading a book with obvious OCR errors. but then i didnt join this forum to get books, i joined to learn more about ereaders and software relating to ereaders.

12-10-2008, 09:15 AM	#67
mtravellerh book creator Posts: 9,635 Karma: 3856660 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Luxembourg Device: PB360°	May I throw in my opinion, too? I do assemble quite a lot of books and I wouldn't appreciate it in the least if one of those books would be drowned in a mass. They are, in my mind, very individual entities that deserve a personal decision for them (a decision just for this specific book). That is quite important for me and I see it as a little gratification for my work on those books. I do this assembling as good as I can and I am quite proud of every single book. I do not want my books to be part of any mass package or anonymous torrent. If you want them, come here, check the uploads and get it, a little bit like buying a book but without the money. That's how I see things.

12-10-2008, 05:39 PM	#69
Alexander Turcic Fully Converged Posts: 18,163 Karma: 14021202 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Switzerland Device: Too many to count here.	Nothing wrong with torrents per se, but I think we must respect the wishes of those whom I count among our most active and contributing members. Whatever their reasons may be, I don't want us to alienate anybody by officially ignoring their wishes and spreading the books through another medium.

12-10-2008, 06:13 PM	#70
Amalthia Wizard Posts: 1,158 Karma: 32196 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Anchorage, AK Device: Sony Reader PRS-505, PRS-650, PRS-T3, Pocketbook HD2	I like the idea of being able to mass download the LRF books. Downloading books from MobileRead isn't exactly point and click. However, the problem with torrents is how do you incorporate updates? Or add the new releases? right now I don't download books from MobileRead because it takes too long to find what I'm looking for and then to get to the download page (that and picking the format...) So it's a rather frustrating experience. I don't mind browsing to see what is interesting to read or what's new but having found an author I like it would be nice to have the option to hit a button and download all their works at once. Bittorrents do have some advantages over hosting the files natively. In that for large collections the bandwidth is spread out amongst the users so it doesn't incur step costs to the host server. however, it has some disadavantages as well such as once the torrent is created and people start downloading if a file is updated later you can't just add that to the torrent it would have to be added to another one. Unless torrent technology has improved since I last looked. I don't get why some of the uploaders are against the idea of mass downloading? I've read through this whole thread and I still don't get the objections. I don't read what the uploader has to say in the first place about the book. I normally check out book summary and file format and download. I've never partipated in any discussion regarding the books I have downloaded from the site. And just because there is no torrent available it's not likely to change my habits into participating. Whereas, I would have really liked to have some way to mass download the stories or find the stories more easily. Basically, I think the people who want to participate will particapate regardless of the status of how people download the books hosted at mobile read.

12-10-2008, 06:46 PM	#71
tompe Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,452 Karma: 7185064 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Linköpng, Sweden Device: Kindle Voyage, Nexus 5, Kindle PW	You do not notice updates with the system today. Or can you get and RSS feed or email when a book changes? I downloaded all books by certain authors some time ago and I would really appreciate some way to know if updates are available. That would require that I can see from my copy which version I have. I also find it to hard to find out if a book by a specific author exist here. Or is there some search trick you can use to find out that?

12-10-2008, 07:06 PM	#72
Elfwreck Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,185 Karma: 25133758 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)	At home, I have dialup internet. Torrents are a godsend. I have torrented 5mb creative commons works, and 95mb videos freely shared by the creator. 5mb takes me about 30 minutes of download time, normally--if it doesn't crash. And in the meantime, I can't do browsing or it slows the download. I can torrent it, which takes much longer, but frees up my online activity. 95mb? I can't download direct at all. Whole install CDs, music by Radiohead, packs of public-domain works... I can download them, a few mb per night, for as long as it takes to get them done. While I'm on dialup because I'm a luddite freak (I don't have the hardware to switch & have been to lazy/confused to figure it out), there are parts of the US and the rest of the world where high-speed internet is just not available. Torrents, even very small torrents, are very useful things. Torrents of packs of books--labeled something like "20 Classics From Mobileread" or "Mobileread Mystery And Horror Collection"--selected sets, not "everything available in the sci-fi topic" (but perhaps "Mobileread's most downloaded sci-fi books") might be a good thing --> Allow new ebook readers to grab a selection of books on a topic of interest, instead of grabbing one, deciding they don't like it, and deciding it's too much hassle to wade through a forum to try to find one they'd like. --> Allow collectors to get a whole set at once. (Yes, they miss out on updates. However, they do that if they grab the set here, too, and don't check back for later versions.) Especially useful for experienced ebook readers who love the formatting people use here, but already have several versions of many public-domain classics. They may not bother collecting "the good version" if it's a one-at-a-time, search-and-download process. --> Putting "mobileread" in the name of the torrent, and including a txt file inside describing the forums and policies, allows people who'd otherwise never notice the place existed to find it. (Not that mobileread is hard to find... IF you are looking for ebook reader information. If you're looking for "sherlock holmes stories," not so much.) --> Having an "official" (or at least sanctioned) forum collection cuts down on the chances of unofficial, unsanctioned sets popping up. There's no geek cred points for making the new, ripoff version of something that's already available in another form--but there are points for taking single-download, one-at-a-time files and collecting them into useful sets.

12-10-2008, 07:33 PM	#74
Dr. Drib Grand Sorcerer Posts: 44,747 Karma: 55645321 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Peru Device: Kindle: Oasis 3, Voyage WiFi; Kobo: Libra 2, Aura One	As long as we're having a discussion on this subject, I would have to say "no" to my books being distributed through a torrent site. I make my books available specifically through MobileRead and wish to support MobileRead in their efforts to make available my "work" (if you will), in addition to making the work of so many other contributors available to members of this community. This has nothing to do with being a moderator. I would continue making books available for as long as I sensed they were welcome here, regardless of a percieved "status." I would say that many of us are very proud of our work in assembling books made specifically for this site. Making the books available through another site through "torrenting" diffuses their worth in the eyes of this assembler. We also run into legalities among some books, depending upon what country one is living in when downloading, and MobileRead - as a community - works very hard to maintain and observe those legal lines. These are just my opinions. Don

12-10-2008, 09:11 PM	#75
RWood Technogeezer Posts: 7,233 Karma: 1601464 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Device: Sony PRS-500	If you go to the MobileRead Wiki and select Notable eBook Uploads from the main page you are offered a selection of three of MobileRead's most popular collections -- Charles Dickens, Jane Austen, and the Harvard Classics. Selecting any one of these presents a page detailing each volume available and the formats that it is available. The links take you directly to the current version where you may download the book. It is not perfect; but, it does provide a service that keeps you from searching through the index. On the topic of "collectors", some time ago Jon (JSWolf) noted that someone had downloaded almost all of the books that MobileRead had provided at the point and posted them on the darknet. I've posted a few books here at MobileRead and I do monitor people's feedback about the books. I do check on how many have viewed the thread and how many have downloaded a certain book in a certain format. This is how the IMP format was added. We posted some and the download counts were high enough to justify their own section. Today when I post a new book at MobileRead I make it in three versions -- LRF, PRC, and IMP. If we had distributed it via a torrent, we would never have known that there were many people interested in IMP format books. MobileRead has implemented a service for Kindle (and all other direct connect Mobipocket users) whereby they can download a freshly made copy of an index to the MobileRead PRC books and review them as if browsing through a card catalog. Should they see on that they like they can click on it and directly download it to their reader. SO for my three cents worth (inflation you know), I do not favor torrents for the MobileRead ebooks.

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