headings, always stick to paragraphs

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by stellatus

Here you go Attachment 192235

I can see some of the long paragraph of the first page drop to the next page if using a small screen and a large text size. And that's OK. Don't try to force it not to split if it needs to.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But these page breaks are 100% useless. The header and paragraph will fit or they won't fit. A page break avoid will not make something fit that doesn't fit. Because this is at the top of the page, it will split if it has to. If it doesn't fit on the first page of the chapter, it won't fit on any page. So just let it be split if it needs to be instead of something going wrong when a program tries to keep everything together but cannot do so.

Yes, Jon, we know that you think they are useless. As you think a lot of things are. But, in case you haven't noticed, lots of people disagree with you on this. In this case, the OP is trying for a style. Maybe it isn't good, maybe it doesn't work, but, until they try, they won't know.

And to be clear, I disagree with you. There are situations when I want a minor heading, or some other bit of text clearly stuck with the following text. Keeping them together could easily improve the reading and comprehension. And sure, it wastes space at the end of the screen (I'm thinking non-fiction more than fiction). But, you have already told them they should do that by splitting the file at that point. And it's not as if we are actually wasting something. A little more whitespace doesn't matter, it isn't increasing the amount of rubbish in our landfills.

And of course, if you don't like it, don't buy the book.

[stellatus]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But these page breaks are 100% useless. The header and paragraph will fit or they won't fit. A page break avoid will not make something fit that doesn't fit. Because this is at the top of the page, it will split if it has to. If it doesn't fit on the first page of the chapter, it won't fit on any page. So just let it be split if it needs to be instead of something going wrong when a program tries to keep everything together but cannot do so.

It would be like a <pre> when the text is too wide and you cannot see some of it.

So I''m going to make separate HTML files for h2 and leaving the CSS instructions "page-brake-after", etc.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by davidfor

Yes, Jon, we know that you think they are useless. As you think a lot of things are. But, in case you haven't noticed, lots of people disagree with you on this. In this case, the OP is trying for a style. Maybe it isn't good, maybe it doesn't work, but, until they try, they won't know.

And to be clear, I disagree with you. There are situations when I want a minor heading, or some other bit of text clearly stuck with the following text. Keeping them together could easily improve the reading and comprehension. And sure, it wastes space at the end of the screen (I'm thinking non-fiction more than fiction). But, you have already told them they should do that by splitting the file at that point. And it's not as if we are actually wasting something. A little more whitespace doesn't matter, it isn't increasing the amount of rubbish in our landfills.

And of course, if you don't like it, don't buy the book.

The thing is, this is at the TOP of the screen. A page bread to keep the header and the first paragraph doesn't matter. It will fit or it will not fit. A page break to keep it together will not work if it doesn't fit. If it wasn't at the top (beginning of the chapter) then a page break may help. But in this case, it won't help.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The thing is, this is at the TOP of the screen. A page bread to keep the header and the first paragraph doesn't matter. It will fit or it will not fit. A page break to keep it together will not work if it doesn't fit. If it wasn't at the top (beginning of the chapter) then a page break may help. But in this case, it won't help.

The thing is, that you haven't read what the OP wants to do. As usual.

They want to keep certain lines together. In this case, a low-level heading with the paragraph afterwards. They don't want to push that to the top of the page every time it occurs. If there is enough space, they are fine for the heading and paragraph to appear in the middle of the page.

It won't work all the time. Ignoring the lack of support in some devices/apps, the larger the font used, the less likely the paragraph won't be split. But, for people using a font similar in apparent size to that use in most paperbacks, it will have an affect.

[stellatus]

OK, thanks a lot for your help. Everything seems clear to me now.

[DyckBook]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But you don't need a div with a pagebreak. It's irrelevant because it's at the top of the screen....

Perhaps what @stellatus was meaning is when a subchapter header ends up just at the bottom of the page with no room for the following text. If my interpretation is correct he (and I) would like that header to be shunted to the next page where it would appear with the following text.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DyckBook

Perhaps what @stellatus was meaning is when a subchapter header ends up just at the bottom of the page with no room for the following text. If my interpretation is correct he (and I) would like that header to be shunted to the next page where it would appear with the following text.

Yes and pretty much everybody here understood that. Even our resident curmudgeon, who on occasion has difficulty separating what he likes versus what's "right" for the world at large.

What has been raised here are several things:

• Many eReaders don't/won't support page-break-after:
• Even in those instances that do, some readers (count me in on this) don't like the appearance of what happens with PBA, because it's constantly and I mean, constantly misleading, thinking you're at the end of a chapter or section, etc. and shortening the available reading space on your screen, (as if maximizing that doesn't matter, mind you), and
• other considerations.

eBooks aren't print. If we had all decided, way back, to make ebooks a less-handy version of print, hell, we could have stuck with ePDFs, so that all the niceties of print could be preserved, without any of the functionality of eBooks.

Amazon does this widows/orphans thing, in KFX and it drives me nuts. I mean, nuts. I'm constantly seeing foreshortened pages and I think "yup, end of chapter" and then I realize, sentence breaks off, or nope, it just continues on the following page.

If I had seen this same type of formatting, 5 years ago, I'd have reported it to Amazon as BAD formatting. Now, it's not "bad" formatting--it's Enhanced Typesetting, "saving me" from OMG, reading WIDOWS AND ORPHANS!!!

It's kludgy and there is, to the best of my knowledge, no "good" way to implement it without simply sacrificing reading space to the pixel-fairies. You either mislead the reader, each and every time you do it (or the device/firmware does it, to be clear), or you live with the idea that humans can hold a thought in their minds while they swipe.

Hitch