Seriously thoughtful When Reasonable People Take Positions

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

I’ve often wondered what emotional and educational coinage is at stake when reasonable people disagree to the point of rudeness.
I think this is fodder for an interesting discussion. Strangely, however, I expect some passionate comments (and the rude remark or two?) if we decide to pursue this discussion.

Don

I'll have a go at both then.
It generally happens to me when people say "sorry, this data does not mix well with my dogma; as such, I will not consider it relevant". Whether this is about "data" in the strict sense, or just anecdotes/logical observations does not really matter, but I've noticed that while there are some who are at least willing to consider it, others just ignore what you say and keep repeating themselves over and over in the hope that you'll give up, so that they can feel that "they've won". The latter group annoys me greatly, as I don't understand at all what they hope to gain from partaking in a conversation.
The whole point of "discussion" is exchange of ideas, not mutually stating positions and leaving it at that.
Admittedly some ideas are hard to back up with "evidence" of any kind, but to most ideas/positions/statements a whole host of things are (sometimes indirectly) relevant, and these can usually be found using Google or Wikipedia. Furthermore, the only way to convince people is by giving them reasons to do so, not by telling them "another viewpoint exists", because the only thing that follows from not being able to produce any arguments to support whatever claim you're making is that the standpoint is apparently rationally indefensible, and wholly dependent on faith (of some sort or other).
I hate it when people do that.

PS. Xenophon: you're welcome as long as you're listening (and likewise)

PPS: Duty Calls:

[kazbates]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Unfortunately many Americans get a narrow and inaccurate view of ourselves through that same media, and those in other countries often have exactly the same problem. That same media tends to shape our thinking or ourselves and others, depending on what they show us. For instance, the Somali pirates are either a bunch of $#!*$ attacking innocents who need to be bombed out of existence, or desperate men from a hopelessly poor country who need serious help and aid, depending on whose media you tune in to.

That is always a danger, and it is up to individuals to look further than what the media tries to spoon-feed us, to get the truth.

One of the values of forums like this is to bring different sources of information together, which can help an individual see all sides, and make a more informed decision about a topic.

You are quite correct, Steve. One of the great benefits of the Internet is that it gives us access to data sources that we would not traditionally have had. The biggest problem, for me at least, is finding the time to sort through the data to separate fact from fiction (or opinion). Unfortunately, the way some websites are presented, it isn't always easy to make that distinction. When I taught fifth grade, I would tell my students to very cautiously use the Internet as a source for information. I told them to focus on sites with a ".edu" or ".gov" address, but even then, you can get information with a slanted view point.

Originally Posted by Ea

Thanks for the clarification. I almost understood you POV to be that it would be best of we all shut up out of politeness and only stuck to things that would not risk hurting anyone. To me, that's too close to a kind of self-censure that I really don't agree with.

I know what it can be like when you hear/see what the press in other countries write about your country, and what other says, but not everyone belives everything the press tells them. USA is also so big and makes so much 'noise' on the world scene that it would be expected. It goes the other way, too. I have seen some odd things said/written about Denmark, but usually I just shrug it off - it's not worth the effort (though, given the size of my country, I should probably be grateful they have heard of it at all )

I am so glad that you asked for clarification, although I'm not sure I actually made anything clearer with all the extra gobledy-gook I added! I absolutely do not want people to "shut up" when they feel strongly about something. My family would tell you it is physically impossible for me to do that!! However, I do think that you should support your opinions with either personal knowledge or factual data from research. Perhaps that's the teacher in me! I also feel that one can present their opinion and discuss opposing opinions without digressing into rudeness. I will say, though, that sometimes it isn't always easy to see that our posts might be considered rude to someone else when we are feeling passionate about the topic.
Kaz

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

desperate men from a hopelessly poor country who need serious help and aid, depending on whose media you tune in to.

Yes, and three of them were aided to a better place by three Navy Seals just this weekend!

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Yep... I'd say your position on that was pretty clear...

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Unfortunately many Americans get a narrow and inaccurate view of ourselves through that same media, and those in other countries often have exactly the same problem. That same media tends to shape our thinking or ourselves and others, depending on what they show us. For instance, the Somali pirates are either a bunch of $#!*$ attacking innocents who need to be bombed out of existence, or desperate men from a hopelessly poor country who need serious help and aid, depending on whose media you tune in to.
That is always a danger, and it is up to individuals to look further than what the media tries to spoon-feed us, to get the truth.

One of the values of forums like this is to bring different sources of information together, which can help an individual see all sides, and make a more informed decision about a topic.

True, there is all too often a biased spin on pretty much any reported news in the media. But sometimes, no matter what the spin, the core of the story is just what it is, nothing more, nothing less, right is right, wrong is wrong, white is white and black is black, no matter how you try to shade it.

To comment on the highlighted portion above about the pirates, both your either and or examples are probably correct to one degree or another, but whichever way we may interpret the cause to be, they're still pirates, committing an act that is illegal throughout the world (if I'm not mistaken.) In this case "point of view" has little bearing on the reporting of the act itself, and in MY personal view does not give them license to commit these crimes no matter what their excuses may be. No amount of media spin can make them out to be anything less than the criminals they are.

But I guess this is and a subject for a different thread. Sorry for straying.

[YGG-]

My experience (and surprise) w/ --numerous-- US friends is hearing "you French are forever bickering w/ your spouses !" --and the original happenstance was : I expressed a disagreement w/ my wife in public (in their presence)...
My (our) belief is : my couple is solid enough to take a dose of expressed disagreement; whereas (it seems) my US counterpart instantly interprets expressing disagreement (in public?) as a threat to their couple ?
Rings any bells ?

[YGG-]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

[...]
PPS: Duty Calls:

Oh I love that

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

But I guess this is and a subject for a different thread. Sorry for straying.

Relax... there are serious threads in this section that have been off-topic for 7 pages now...

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Relax... there are serious threads in this section that have been off-topic for 7 pages now...

Yeh, but maybe it's not such a good idea to wander down too many roads at once. Often a different yet interesting subject is posted by someone but lost for discussion because the fixation of the moment is on other topics (i.e., healthcare, education.) Sometimes if it's worth talking about, it's worth moving to another time and place.

[ProfJulie]

Originally Posted by YGG-

My experience (and surprise) w/ --numerous-- US friends is hearing "you French are forever bickering w/ your spouses !" --and the original happenstance was : I expressed a disagreement w/ my wife in public (in their presence)...
My (our) belief is : my couple is solid enough to take a dose of expressed disagreement; whereas (it seems) my US counterpart instantly interprets expressing disagreement (in public?) as a threat to their couple ?
Rings any bells ?

No, not really, but that really depends on how loudly the couple is expressing disagreement with each other and where the discussion is occuring....Personally, I do not like overhearing other people's conversations, especially if they are of a personal nature, so if the disagreement is loud, then I may not necessarily think the couple's relationship is in jeopardy, but I probably won't appreciate overhearing the discussion, especially if it is in a restaurant or the theatre.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Relax... there are serious threads in this section that have been off-topic for 7 pages now...

How can a thread called "When Reasonable People Take Positions " have a topic anyway? And how would one be off topic?

As I see it, the only way to be OT is to be unreasonable!

[Dr. Drib]

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

No, not really, but that really depends on how loudly the couple is expressing disagreement with each other and where the discussion is occuring....Personally, I do not like overhearing other people's conversations, especially if they are of a personal nature, so if the disagreement is loud, then I may not necessarily think the couple's relationship is in jeopardy, but I probably won't appreciate overhearing the discussion, especially if it is in a restaurant or the theatre.

I personally don't mind overhearing conversations - it comes and goes as the traffic flows (in a mall, for example).

However, disagreements in a public place can (for me) be disconcerting. I think it depends upon the level of disagreement, which seems to coincide with the rise of one's voice.

I fully appreciate (and agree with you) when you talk about a "discussion" in a theatre or at a restaurant. I've often told people to please be quiet and that's usually enough to "shock" the couple into realizing that they're being rude in a place where quiet (a theatre, for example) is a necessity.

Don

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by wodin

How can a thread called "When Reasonable People Take Positions " have a topic anyway? And how would one be off topic?

As I see it, the only way to be OT is to be unreasonable!

Sorry... I was speaking of other threads in the Conservatory section... not this particular thread!

[YGG-]

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

No, not really, but that really depends on how loudly the couple is expressing disagreement with each other and where the discussion is occuring....Personally, I do not like overhearing other people's conversations, especially if they are of a personal nature, so if the disagreement is loud, then I may not necessarily think the couple's relationship is in jeopardy, but I probably won't appreciate overhearing the discussion, especially if it is in a restaurant or the theatre.

I haven't been specific enough : the case would be while having dinner by one's place (private occurence); & my feeling was our "disagreement" was pretty tame (can I say that?)...My friend's remark really struck me as "you just don't express disagreement w/ your spouse in front of other peole" --now, maybe it's him, but I've heard other comments in the same line.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by YGG-

I haven't been specific enough : the case would be while having dinner by one's place (private occurence); & my feeling was our "disagreement" was pretty tame (can I say that?)...My friend's remark really struck me as "you just don't express disagreement w/ your spouse in front of other peole" --now, maybe it's him, but I've heard other comments in the same line.

Perhaps that's a cultural difference? I certainly have married friends who fight like alley-cats in public .