Classic Why is e-ink nook so slow with Bibles?

wilecyote · 01-21-2011, 02:02 PM

I am looking for a little help understanding this product. I am puzzled by the slowness of using Bibles with it. Maybe I don't understand this kind of product fully, but I have a 6-7 year old palm Tungsten E PDA which has a 133 Mhz TI OMAP processor and 32 mb internal memory. I have always run a ton of apps on it, one of which is a Bible app. I have multiple translations loaded up & can switch back & forth quickly & easily. Looking up passages by chapter & verse is also very fast. The nook however, is a totally different story here. I have read that it has something like a 667 Mhz processor, but man is it slooooow & very cumbersome with Bibles!!!! Looking up a passage of scripture takes forever. If you have been reading something else & go back to the Bible & try to look up a passage, you have to wait for all the book/chapter references to load all over again, each time, which takes several seconds. Then you have to page & scroll to the book & chapter you want. The whole process takes forever! It is literally instantaneous on my old palm. Is it just Bibles, or is it the same way with other large books? I read a lot of nook owners posting on the web about this.

(maybe other large books with a lot of references behave the same way???). Can anybody shed some light on this?

RAH · 01-23-2011, 08:56 AM

Well, whatever the problem is, it doesn't seem that it has anything to do with the fact that it is a Bible. It must be because it is a large book with a lot of references, unless you are feeling really paranoid.

I don't work with any really large books like this, but I do know that if I try to use GoTo>Page on a fairly large book, and try to go MANY pages forward, sometimes it takes a long time, and sometimes even fails completely.

beartard · 01-23-2011, 09:20 AM

And this isn't just a nook issue. I had similar problems on a Sony Reader with anything from Bibles to complete Shakespeare or Sherlock Holmes collections. The larger the book, and the more complicated the linking structure inside, the longer the load time.

neilmarr · 01-23-2011, 02:15 PM

And it's a darned sight faster than asking some cloistered scribe to copy it out and illuminate it individually for you as his lifetime's work, WileCyote. Cheers. Neil

jswinden · 01-23-2011, 02:31 PM

I agree with others that it is a universal problem with eBook readers from all brands. I suspect it has to do with two things:

(1) The size of the book. Bibles tend to be large files.

(2) The complexity of the book and how it is formated. Bibles and other large books tend to have a lot of cross-referencing, and Bibles in particular have a lot of styles for formatting. There are cleanly formatted huge books which work well and horribly formatted small books that barely work. My guess is that most Bibles are simply too large for the publisher to do a good job of formatting them for eBook readers. They take shortcuts which result in horribly complex formatting (in the HTML) and that can drastically slow down the rendering of a book.

If you ever use a program like MS Word to convert a DOC file into HTML, you will see what I mean. Instead of creating a simple CSS stylesheet and applying one style hundreds of times with a class statement, they tend to envelop each occurence of the text with that style inside of span tags and manually apply the style. You wind up with a huge HTML file that is extremely cluttered with style statements. It takes much longer to render that convoluted garbage than it does to render a well and simply formatted HTML file.

jswinden · 01-23-2011, 02:53 PM

Here is an example of convoluted and horribly complex formatting. The text in the quotation box is followed by the actual HTML file generated by MS Word. When publishers create similarly convoluted HTML and convert it to an eBook format you have problems.

Quote:

Heading

Here is a simple three paragraph document with various formatting applied. This is a phrase in a different style. Here is another style.

Here we or placing text in a block to indent it on the left side. This is an easy style to use but can become convoluted. Here is another font being used.

Now we are back to normal paragraphing, but we use bold and italics.

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<body lang=EN-US style='tab-interval:.5in'>

<div class=WordSection1>

<h1>Heading</h1>

<p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>Here is a simple three paragraph document with various
formatting applied. This is a <span style='font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"'>phrase
in a different style</span>. Here is <span style='font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"'>another
style</span>.</p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Here we or placing text in a block
to indent it on the left side. This is an easy style to use but can become
convoluted. Here is <span style='font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"'>another
font being used</span>.</p>

<p class=MsoNormal>Now we are back to normal paragraphing, but we use <b
style='mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'>bold</b> and <i style='mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'>italics</i>.</p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

The following is the same document but formatted in a way to make it much better for conversion to ePub or another eBook format.

Code:

<html>

<head>
<title>My Book Title</title>
<style>
	p.normal { font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"; }	
	p.indented { font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"; margin-left: 10px; }
	.ArialRoundedMTBold { font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; }
	.SegoeUI { font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"; }
</style>
</head>

<body>

<h1>Heading</h1>

<p class="normal">Here is a simple three paragraph document with various formatting applied. 
This is a <span class="ArialRoundedMTBold">phrase in a different style</span>. 
Here is <span class="ArialRoundedMTBold">another style</span>.</p>

<p class="indented">Here we or placing text in a block to indent it on the left side. 
This is an easy style to use but can become convoluted. Here 
is <span class="SegoeUI">another font being used</span>.</p>

<p class="normal">Now we are back to normal paragraphing, but we 
use <strong>bold</strong> and <em>italics</em>.</p>

</body>
</html>

As you can see, there is a major difference in size and complexity between the two HTML files.

osnova · 02-01-2011, 12:57 AM

I think I've nailed it. At least it is much faster than initially.
I've just published to B&N a KJV Bible with Apocrypha and Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion (see my website for links). You can't call either one a small book; however, they work pretty fast.

The key is to have clean formatting, as Jack was saying, and break up the text into small enough chunks inside the epub (I keep each one a chapter size). So, when you open a chapter, you don't have to load the 66 (or with Apocrypha 81) books of the Bible.

I have Jesus' words in red. It shows great on Nook Color but I don't know how it would look on the classic Nook.

cypresstwist · 02-01-2011, 03:08 AM

The Nook is created by atheists so it would be normal for it to load Bibles slowly.

)

Bookworm_Girl · 02-01-2011, 03:25 PM

I think it is a combination of the large file size and formatting too. Publishers just haven't taken the time & money to produce "real" e-versions. Zondervan just released an NIV version in December specifically formatted for ereaders. It has a ToC page and links that make it really easy to navigate. It is also very speedy. It is a big improvement from past versions I've used. You might want to try a website like christianbooks.com to see if you can find any newer e-versions for your needs. They have a larger selection than B&N.

wilecyote · 02-05-2011, 09:18 PM

Thanks for the input everyone, but as I mentioned in my post, my 7 year old palm handheld has a considerably slower processor; not to mention generations older technology. I have over a dozen Bibles loaded with comentaries, dictionaries....you name it....can switch pop up a bible to a specific reference, switch translations, go to reference after reference & it is literally there right when I complete my screen taps. Very fast.... the nook can't even hope to keep up. This just makes no sense.... very disapointing....this thing is good for reading a regular book ( like a novel) straight through, but not much else!

DMcCunney · 02-06-2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilecyote

Thanks for the input everyone, but as I mentioned in my post, my 7 year old palm handheld has a considerably slower processor; not to mention generations older technology. I have over a dozen Bibles loaded with comentaries, dictionaries....you name it....can switch pop up a bible to a specific reference, switch translations, go to reference after reference & it is literally there right when I complete my screen taps. Very fast.... the nook can't even hope to keep up. This just makes no sense.... very disapointing....this thing is good for reading a regular book ( like a novel) straight through, but not much else!

Which bible software do you use on the Palm device?

My preference is the open source Palm Bible+. I like the split screen capability which permits you to have two texts open at once, with synchronized scrolling to display line by line textual differences. It also offers right-to-left and font support, so you can display texts in thinks like Hebrew and Greek. There is also full documentation on getting texts into the Bible+ format (though some things are copyrighted and not available for it.) It's also usable for texts that aren't Christian bibles - I have a translation of the Koran in Bible+ format.

Principal Bible+ maintainer Alex Pruss is an MR member, though I don't think he's been around lately.

Meanwhile, I'm unsurprised by your results. The Palm software you use is designed specifically for the purpose, and the volumes it displays have been created to work with the software. Processor speed is only one factor in how quickly a device will perform a task. The nature of the task, the software doing it, and the data files the software uses all have huge effects.
______
Dennis

01-21-2011, 02:02 PM	#1
wilecyote Junior Member Posts: 3 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2011 Device: e-ink nook	Why is e-ink nook so slow with Bibles? I am looking for a little help understanding this product. I am puzzled by the slowness of using Bibles with it. Maybe I don't understand this kind of product fully, but I have a 6-7 year old palm Tungsten E PDA which has a 133 Mhz TI OMAP processor and 32 mb internal memory. I have always run a ton of apps on it, one of which is a Bible app. I have multiple translations loaded up & can switch back & forth quickly & easily. Looking up passages by chapter & verse is also very fast. The nook however, is a totally different story here. I have read that it has something like a 667 Mhz processor, but man is it slooooow & very cumbersome with Bibles!!!! Looking up a passage of scripture takes forever. If you have been reading something else & go back to the Bible & try to look up a passage, you have to wait for all the book/chapter references to load all over again, each time, which takes several seconds. Then you have to page & scroll to the book & chapter you want. The whole process takes forever! It is literally instantaneous on my old palm. Is it just Bibles, or is it the same way with other large books? I read a lot of nook owners posting on the web about this. (maybe other large books with a lot of references behave the same way???). Can anybody shed some light on this?

01-23-2011, 02:31 PM	#5
jswinden Nameless Being	I agree with others that it is a universal problem with eBook readers from all brands. I suspect it has to do with two things: (1) The size of the book. Bibles tend to be large files. (2) The complexity of the book and how it is formated. Bibles and other large books tend to have a lot of cross-referencing, and Bibles in particular have a lot of styles for formatting. There are cleanly formatted huge books which work well and horribly formatted small books that barely work. My guess is that most Bibles are simply too large for the publisher to do a good job of formatting them for eBook readers. They take shortcuts which result in horribly complex formatting (in the HTML) and that can drastically slow down the rendering of a book. If you ever use a program like MS Word to convert a DOC file into HTML, you will see what I mean. Instead of creating a simple CSS stylesheet and applying one style hundreds of times with a class statement, they tend to envelop each occurence of the text with that style inside of span tags and manually apply the style. You wind up with a huge HTML file that is extremely cluttered with style statements. It takes much longer to render that convoluted garbage than it does to render a well and simply formatted HTML file. Last edited by jswinden; 01-23-2011 at 02:39 PM.

02-01-2011, 03:25 PM	#9
Bookworm_Girl E-reader Enthusiast Posts: 4,871 Karma: 36507503 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Southwest, USA Device: Kindle Oasis 3; Kobo Aura One; iPad Mini 5	I think it is a combination of the large file size and formatting too. Publishers just haven't taken the time & money to produce "real" e-versions. Zondervan just released an NIV version in December specifically formatted for ereaders. It has a ToC page and links that make it really easy to navigate. It is also very speedy. It is a big improvement from past versions I've used. You might want to try a website like christianbooks.com to see if you can find any newer e-versions for your needs. They have a larger selection than B&N. Last edited by Bookworm_Girl; 02-01-2011 at 03:28 PM.

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01-23-2011, 08:56 AM	#2
RAH Guru Posts: 611 Karma: 575652 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Hampton, NH Device: Color Nook; Nook Touch	Well, whatever the problem is, it doesn't seem that it has anything to do with the fact that it is a Bible. It must be because it is a large book with a lot of references, unless you are feeling really paranoid. I don't work with any really large books like this, but I do know that if I try to use GoTo>Page on a fairly large book, and try to go MANY pages forward, sometimes it takes a long time, and sometimes even fails completely.

01-23-2011, 09:20 AM	#3
beartard Minister of Linux Posts: 196 Karma: 73235 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Winter Haven, Florida, USA Device: nook, T-Mobile MyTouch 3G Slide	And this isn't just a nook issue. I had similar problems on a Sony Reader with anything from Bibles to complete Shakespeare or Sherlock Holmes collections. The larger the book, and the more complicated the linking structure inside, the longer the load time.

01-23-2011, 02:15 PM	#4
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,216 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	And it's a darned sight faster than asking some cloistered scribe to copy it out and illuminate it individually for you as his lifetime's work, WileCyote. Cheers. Neil

02-01-2011, 12:57 AM	#7
osnova Kindler of the Flame Posts: 582 Karma: 646016 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: US of A Device: K DX,3,KT,KP,KF, KFHD; Nook C, PRS600, iPad, Xoom, N900, N810, Zaurus	I think I've nailed it. At least it is much faster than initially. I've just published to B&N a KJV Bible with Apocrypha and Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion (see my website for links). You can't call either one a small book; however, they work pretty fast. The key is to have clean formatting, as Jack was saying, and break up the text into small enough chunks inside the epub (I keep each one a chapter size). So, when you open a chapter, you don't have to load the 66 (or with Apocrypha 81) books of the Bible. I have Jesus' words in red. It shows great on Nook Color but I don't know how it would look on the classic Nook.

02-01-2011, 03:08 AM	#8
cypresstwist Nooking in Romania Posts: 54 Karma: 232 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Romania Device: Nook WiFi	The Nook is created by atheists so it would be normal for it to load Bibles slowly. )

02-05-2011, 09:18 PM	#10
wilecyote Junior Member Posts: 3 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2011 Device: e-ink nook	Thanks for the input everyone, but as I mentioned in my post, my 7 year old palm handheld has a considerably slower processor; not to mention generations older technology. I have over a dozen Bibles loaded with comentaries, dictionaries....you name it....can switch pop up a bible to a specific reference, switch translations, go to reference after reference & it is literally there right when I complete my screen taps. Very fast.... the nook can't even hope to keep up. This just makes no sense.... very disapointing....this thing is good for reading a regular book ( like a novel) straight through, but not much else!

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