Seriously thoughtful Learning a new language

[kazbates]

I would love to learn another language. I think Spanish would be the most helpful here, though I did take French in high school in college. My brothers like to tease me because I like to put the small amount I learned to good use when speaking commonly used French sayings. (It was always difficult being the only girl child at home ) I would love to hear how the Rosetta Stone program works, too! Shannon has had 8 years of high school and college Spanish. I am always asking her to tell me what Spanish speakers are saying when we pass them. Not to be nosy about their conversation (really!) but to find out how much she actually learned and to get her to practice it. I am totally jealous that she knows as much as she does and she has been told by a number of her teachers that she has a good ear for languages.

I see music more as a mathematical code that the musician needs to decode to bring out the beauty of the music. I played the trumpet and took voice lessons for years, so I can pick up a piece of music and start singing if given middle C. My husband can't read music, so he plays the guitar by hearing the song and the recreating the chords. I figure he's a much better decoder than I am because he doesn't even need the "Orphan Annie Secret Decoder Ring"!

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Abelturd

What impression did it leave on you, Slovakia, I mean?
Did you try slivovica?
See, Jaro,there you have your Slovak. I could spill a whole lot more for you, if you like.

I will most certainly go back there... We crossed Slovakia on our way from Poland to Hungary. I don't remember exactly what cities we passed, but we camped in Bojnice and we did some shopping in Martin. We didn't have too much time otherwise we'd have stayed in that area for a few days longer.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Abelturd

I'd like to ask people who fluently speak more than one foreign language - how do you maintain your skill in an environment, where you don't come into contact with that particular language? Because it always leaves my mouth hanging open when I hear of people who fluently speak and are capable to read books in 3 or 4 foreign languages; it has to require a great deal of effort and time to maintain prowess in all of them, hasn't it?

I believe most of them are from the "lucky" group. Western Europe.

English, German, Swedish, French, Italian, Spanish....if one of them is your native language, it is easier for you to learn another because they have many similarities.
You will not find many people who can fluently speak and read books in ..let's say English, Japanese and Hebrew.
Even for Eastern Europeans(xUSSR, Bulgaria, Poland, etc.) learning English or German is a lot more difficult task than for any Western European citizen.

My first language is Russian, at the age of 18 I moved to Israel and learned passable Hebrew, I used to study at university and take notes during lectures...and the last one is English. I read books in English since 1999...but if I had a choice, I would trade in my Russian and Hebrew for fluent/native knowledge of English without any shadow of doubt.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by astra

English, German, Swedish, French, Italian, Spanish....if one of them is your native language, it is easier for you to learn another because they have many similarities.
You will not find many people who can fluently speak and read books in ..let's say English, Japanese and Hebrew.

But one probably does find people who can read, say, Hebrew and Arabic, which again are closely-related languages.

[astra]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But one probably does find people who can read, say, Hebrew and Arabic, which again are closely-related languages.

Probably? Frankly speaking I don't know. I think arabic is a lot more difficult to learn, but I could be wrong.

[HarryT]

Arabic and Hebrew are both members of the Semitic language group and "work" (gramatically speaking) in much the same way. Many Arabic and Hebrew words are extremely similar. Of course, they are written using different alphabets, but that's not a significant issue.

[GraceKrispy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Arabic and Hebrew are both members of the Semitic language group and "work" (gramatically speaking) in much the same way. Many Arabic and Hebrew words are extremely similar. Of course, they are written using different alphabets, but that's not a significant issue.

To me, that would seem to be a significant issue. All the languages I've used use some variation of the letters used in the English alphabet- add a few, take away a lot, add diacritical markings, etc. To learn a language that had completely different symbols would be harder, I would think...

A Japanese friend taught me a little bit of Japanese and the letters used really threw me off. My mind is trained to recognize the slight differences in English letters. I wonder if that would have been easier had I learned, or even been exposed to, a variety of alphabet systems as a child.

My oldest son had a good start on reading English before he began at Hawaiian immersion. I found that he was able to keep up well in both languages. My younger two had not really learned letters or sounds in English before beginning Hawaiian. Now that they have finished K and 1 grade, I am working more on having them learn English. Some of the letters have different names, and all the vowels have different sounds. I am doing it during the summer, hoping that the more "intense" instruction in English won't confuse the instruction they get during the school year in Hawaiian. I have always had the rule (in the classroom as well) that if you're spelling in Hawaiian, use the Hawaiian letter names, in English, use the English letter names, hoping that will help eliminate some of the confusion.

How does it work in countries where they teach a second language at a younger age? Do you learn to read/write in both language simultaneously? or do you get a foundation in one language before moving on to the next?

[nekokami]

I can't believe I missed this thread for three days.

I speak English (my first language), and "family" Mandarin Chinese. I learned Mandarin from our kids, who were adopted at ages 6 and 11 years. I'm reasonably fluent (where I'm defining "fluent" here as speaking without hesitation), but only in certain domains and with not entirely correct grammar. Rather like my teachers, I suppose. I frequently have bilingual dreams, in which I'm puzzling through how to express myself in Mandarin, and I can follow parts of interviews with speakers of Mandarin on the radio or our Chinese movies and cartoons (a great way to learn!) but I can't have a normal conversation with an adult speaker. I can read about 300 characters and reliably write about 200, which puts me at a first grade level, probably.

I studied French and Spanish in middle school and high school, and Japanese and Sanskrit in college as a linguistics major. I can read French and Spanish at least somewhat, and I can follow a fair amount of technical conversation in Spanish (much to my surprise). I used to be able to speak Japanese well enough to get by in a restaurant, and even to surprise the waitstaff a bit. I can still read hirigana (the main syllabary) and some kanji. These days, everything I try to say in a language other than English tends to come out in Mandarin, but I'm gradually regaining what limited facility I once had in other languages.

I was very surprised a couple of years ago to find that I can read some Dutch, which I have never studied.

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

I think the best time to learn a language is as a child (generally speaking.)

It used to be thought that there was some specific age after which learning a second language with true fluency was impossible. That idea has been pretty much discredited now by research, with the exception of acquiring a native accent. But I think it really is true that kids have more time to learn a new language, as well as less resistance or fear, and are therefore generally more successful.

Originally Posted by GraceKrispy

I also have a tendency to use Hawaiian with the kids in public, especially if a little 'correction' is needed.

So funny -- I did this with my kids when they were younger. It was my way of passing hints to them about rules of politeness without publicly embarrassing them.

Originally Posted by GraceKrispy

This also begs the question : what defines fluency? What makes one fluent?

I don't think there is an agreed-upon definition the way you mean it, but the technical definition of fluency is usually related to speaking with few hesitations or gaps, as distinct from grammatical skill or pronunciation.

Originally Posted by rebarnmom

I was planning on teaching my daughter Spanish and learning it along with her. I purchased the Rosetta Stone software for that purpose.

I've used Rosetta Stone. I have mixed feelings about it. It's thorough, but boring, and it's essentially a flashcard program, built around memorizing words, then phrases, then sentences. It cannot replace conversation with a skilled speaker of the target language-- or even come close. I would recommend supplementing it with videos (movies, tv series, soap operas-- whatever you like to watch in your first language), and if at all possible, connect with some speakers to practice.

Originally Posted by astra

I believe most of them are from the "lucky" group. Western Europe.

English, German, Swedish, French, Italian, Spanish....if one of them is your native language, it is easier for you to learn another because they have many similarities.
You will not find many people who can fluently speak and read books in ..let's say English, Japanese and Hebrew.

That would be an unusual combination, but English, Japanese, and Chinese is not so uncommon, and those are all from different language families. I have also met numerous people from Africa who speak several languages from completely different families, e.g. Xhosa, Ibo, and English.

Originally Posted by GraceKrispy

A Japanese friend taught me a little bit of Japanese and the letters used really threw me off. My mind is trained to recognize the slight differences in English letters. I wonder if that would have been easier had I learned, or even been exposed to, a variety of alphabet systems as a child.

Yes, it undeniably makes a huge difference. For example, my kids had some trouble learning the Latin alphabet, which they had never seen before, and I constantly have to explain to my Chinese teaching friends that their students are going to need a lot more time to get familiar with writing in characters than their students back in China or Taiwan, who grew up seeing these symbols around them all the time. (Sometimes I write my name in Hebrew for them so they can get a sense of how difficult this is-- especially the Taiwanese teachers, who often started learning English at a relatively early age.) My Chinese friends have to be reminded that Westerners can't even tell, without prior instruction, whether a character is right-side-up or not.

That being said, if you can find someone to explain the writing system who either is fluent but NOT a native speaker, or a native speaker who is also trained as a linguist, you may have an easier time learning. It takes someone who is able to step outside the language to explain it to someone who is coming at it completely fresh. To a native speaker, too many questions are answered "that's just the way we do it," when in fact there are rules and patterns that become more obvious to "outsiders."

And now, I need to sign off, read for a bit, and get some sleep. 晚安！

[Magmao3]

Hi there,

Interesting question to ask on Mobile Forum, especially if you look at how we can make best use of e-books while learning new languages, or getting hold of books that you can't buy in the country where you live.
I am Dutch, but I live in New Zealand with my bilingual husband and children.
They all learned to speak Dutch and English simultaniously from the day they were born. It has proven to be a huge advantage to them, they switch from one language to the other, without any hick-ups. On top of that, it seems to be very easy to learn a third and fourth language, they have a beautiful pronounciation of French and Latin seems to be 'easy' as well.
We don't own an e-book reader yet, but from the research I have done (mostly at Mobileforum) it seems that Bebook would give good support for Dutch books, as well as German, French and of course English.

I would love to read about your experiences if you read e-books in different languages. Also, do you store a dictionary on your e-reader, and what is the ease of use?

On your question about remembering a language: I learned to speak 5 languages (in Holland it's quite normal) in school, and haven't spoken any French for 20 years, but now that my children are learning French, it all comes back to me, vocabulary, grammar. I think that if I was dropped in the middle of France, I would easily get by, even though I don't have a very good memory. It just seems to be stored somewhere in the grey cells, and
comes out when needed. You'll be amazed.

[rebarnmom]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I've used Rosetta Stone. I have mixed feelings about it. It's thorough, but boring, and it's essentially a flashcard program, built around memorizing words, then phrases, then sentences. It cannot replace conversation with a skilled speaker of the target language-- or even come close. I would recommend supplementing it with videos (movies, tv series, soap operas-- whatever you like to watch in your first language), and if at all possible, connect with some speakers to practice.

I don't have enough experience with Rosetta Stone yet to make any comment. But I do have a friend who is from Peru originally, and English is her second language. I am hoping to do just that... practice conversational Spanish with her. That's a good idea about using movie or TV videos as a supplement!

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Yes, [alphabets] undeniably makes a huge difference. For example, my kids had some trouble learning the Latin alphabet, which they had never seen before, and I constantly have to explain to my Chinese teaching friends that their students are going to need a lot more time to get familiar with writing in characters than their students back in China or Taiwan, who grew up seeing these symbols around them all the time.

For alphabetic languages - ie languages which use the Roman, Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, etc - alphabets, it really is not a problem for most adult learners.

I am a moderator of the Latin and ancient Greek forums of an on-line adult-education "distance learning" establishment here in the UK. The one thing that EVERYBODY worries about when they are starting to learn Greek is "how will I cope with that funny alphabet?". The thing that almost everybody finds is that within literally a few days of starting to learn the language, they no longer even notice the alphabet. Learning new alphabets really is not a problem for the overwhelming majority of people. It "looks" scary, but it isn't.

I found the Arabic alphabet a slight challenge when I started to learn it, because each letter has four different "shapes" depending where it occurs in a word, but even that, after a week or so, is not a problem.

Alphabets are just "shapes". Really, most people are perfectly capable of learning new ones very easily.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by rebarnmom

I don't have enough experience with Rosetta Stone yet to make any comment. But I do have a friend who is from Peru originally, and English is her second language. I am hoping to do just that... practice conversational Spanish with her. That's a good idea about using movie or TV videos as a supplement!

One very good web site I'd recommend for anyone wanting to learn a language who doesn't have easy access to a native speaker is:

http://www.edufire.com

This is a site which provides "video conferencing" facilities and hooks up students with tutors all over the world. All you need at the most basic level is a microphone on your PC. A webcam is useful, but optional. I've used it to have lessons with several different tutors, and it really does work extremely well.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by HarryT

For alphabetic languages - ie languages which use the Roman, Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, etc - alphabets, it really is not a problem for most adult learners.

I am a moderator of the Latin and ancient Greek forums of an on-line adult-education "distance learning" establishment here in the UK. The one thing that EVERYBODY worries about when they are starting to learn Greek is "how will I cope with that funny alphabet?". The thing that almost everybody finds is that within literally a few days of starting to learn the language, they no longer even notice the alphabet. Learning new alphabets really is not a problem for the overwhelming majority of people. It "looks" scary, but it isn't.

Here I have to disagree with you.
Greek alphabet is something different than, let's say Russian Azbuka.
Most of technically educated people in my country know quite a few greek letters from its use in mathematics. Even kids from grammar school have seen alpha beta gamma used to mark angles, they will have seen greek letter S used as Sum symbol and do not forget Omega - symbol of electrical resistance. And of course Delta used as a symbol of difference.
When I was learning Russian I spent most of the effort fighting to read Azbuka fluently. Even after 10 years of learning I had to fight with Azbuka. Have a look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_alphabet

I know, I was a special case - from the entire class I had the greatest problems with writing of dictations despite great effort I put into it. Yet I am not dyslectic. I have never had problems with other languages or even special symbol language used in higher mathematics. My point is that the unfamiliar alphabet can significantly complicate life of somebody trying to learn a new language.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

I will admit to being not so good at learning new languages. I studied French for two years in Jr. High, but with that knowledge I can count to 10, and tell someone to "Kiss My *ss" (actually I learned that last part from my maternal Grandma who was French Canadian)

But I can "speak" in American Sign Language. Not very well, but I can communicate with Deaf People. I learned that through community college and being engaged to a lovely deaf woman for two years.

Yeah, it didn''t work out. Let's not talk about that, unless you want to bring me to tears.

But ASL is a language to its own. Which is another topic altogether. I imagine many Hearing people do not even know that Deaf people have their own language barrier.

I'm useless at languages.
A smattering of french from school survives and an even small amount of german from college days..
Hell I even have problems with plain old English.
BSL is a pain and I really should try to learn it, or at least cued-speech ....

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by kacir

I know, I was a special case - from the entire class I had the greatest problems with writing of dictations despite great effort I put into it. Yet I am not dyslectic. I have never had problems with other languages or even special symbol language used in higher mathematics. My point is that the unfamiliar alphabet can significantly complicate life of somebody trying to learn a new language.

I agree with you that for some people it can be an issue. I am simply relating my personal experience is that for most people it really isn't. For example, I found that writing out the Arabic alphabet for 10 minutes at a time, three times a day, had it "memorized" for me in a couple of weeks.

Certainly, learning a language which uses an alphabet that you're already familiar with is easier, but a "strange" alphabet needn't prove an obstacle for language learning for the majority of people. Of course, learning to read and write non-alphabetic languages (Chinese, Japanese, etc) is a different "kettle of fish" altogether!