Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > General Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-30-2011, 04:39 PM   #1
MartinC
Hanger on
MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
MartinC's Avatar
 
Posts: 148
Karma: 1355233
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dorset, UK
Device: Kindle 3, Galaxy S, Sony PRS-505, Sony tablet
The case of the missing TOC

Is it my imagination, or are there more indie Kindle books than there used to be without cover or table of contents?

Cover art is not essential. I personally like to have a "proper" cover - a good one can give you a feel for the story and the author before you begin, but I can see that none at all might be better than a poor one. Still, these books always manage to have a cover on their Amazon page, so why not in the book itself?

A table of contents, I would have thought, is essential (unless you have no chapters at all). At the moment I am reading a historical novel which does have a contents page, but bizarrely no hyperlinks. This is especially annoying because there are several appendices and a list of characters which I would like to refer to while I am reading. Tracking them down and bookmarking them is a real pain.

The Amazon Kindle Publishing Guidelines are clear that cover image and TOC are mandatory (though inevitably Amazon do nothing to enforce this - if only...). Are authors starting to use formatting systems that do not provide them, or are they just being lazy?
MartinC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 01:24 AM   #2
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
It's pure laziness; there's no technical reason for it, and no excuse.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 08-31-2011, 02:02 AM   #3
rkomar
Wizard
rkomar ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rkomar ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rkomar ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rkomar ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rkomar ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rkomar ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rkomar ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rkomar ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rkomar ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rkomar ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rkomar ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,977
Karma: 18343081
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Sudbury, ON, Canada
Device: PRS-505, PB 902, PRS-T1, PB 623, PB 840, PB 633
There's an author I follow who publishes his works independently, and he recently took the foray into ebookland. His books had a skimpy table of contents, no links (despite being reference works), not even any tags specifying the title, author,... I gave him some feedback on this stuff, and in the replies it sounded like he had no experience with ebooks himself, and he'd just handed over his Word files to be automatically converted by the distribution site.

I think as ebooks become more and more popular, many authors will be feeling the pull to just get their books over there. However, until ebook publishing becomes mainstream for most authors, I can guess that we'll see many more books pushed through by people who don't have a real understanding of the electronic format's unique strengths.
rkomar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 02:53 AM   #4
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
As I said, pure laziness. If you don't know how to produce a proper eBook, LEARN.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 03:21 AM   #5
TheSFReader
Groupie
TheSFReader is just really niceTheSFReader is just really niceTheSFReader is just really niceTheSFReader is just really niceTheSFReader is just really niceTheSFReader is just really niceTheSFReader is just really niceTheSFReader is just really niceTheSFReader is just really niceTheSFReader is just really niceTheSFReader is just really nice
 
Posts: 172
Karma: 161634
Join Date: Dec 2010
Device: Nook
Missing TOC ?

I know some of you might not like it (and in the mentionned case of a "non working TOC I agree it's "lazyness"), but some authors decide explicitly to not add a TOC in their book (or send it at the back) to allow a bigger part of the "story" in the Samples.
Note also that when correctly done, Epub manages TOC natively, hence making an "explicit TOC" unnecessary.
TheSFReader is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 08-31-2011, 03:23 AM   #6
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSFReader View Post
I know some of you might not like it (and in the mentionned case of a "non working TOC I agree it's "lazyness"), but some authors decide explicitly to not add a TOC in their book (or send it at the back) to allow a bigger part of the "story" in the Samples.
Note also that when correctly done, Epub manages TOC natively, hence making an "explicit TOC" unnecessary.
For a novel, I agree; a TOC is not vital. For a reference book, though, it's generally pretty essential.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 05:52 PM   #7
William F
Pirosopher
William F can program the VCR without an owner's manual.William F can program the VCR without an owner's manual.William F can program the VCR without an owner's manual.William F can program the VCR without an owner's manual.William F can program the VCR without an owner's manual.William F can program the VCR without an owner's manual.William F can program the VCR without an owner's manual.William F can program the VCR without an owner's manual.William F can program the VCR without an owner's manual.William F can program the VCR without an owner's manual.William F can program the VCR without an owner's manual.
 
William F's Avatar
 
Posts: 55
Karma: 166972
Join Date: Jul 2011
Device: kindle, pc
Quote:
For a novel, I agree; a TOC is not vital.
It may not be vital to the reading experience, but it is vital to the perception that (for us indies anyway) we produce books that rival the big publishing houses in quality. It's hard enough to get people to search us out without giving them a half baked product to reward their efforts. We are on the cusp of a major societal shift here and if we don't act responsibly we are going to lose a great opportunity.
Us being independant authors of course.
William F is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 06:16 PM   #8
mr ploppy
Feral Underclass
mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
mr ploppy's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,622
Karma: 26821535
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Yorkshire, tha noz
Device: 2nd hand paperback
I know my way around html, and it took me a fair while to figure out how to get a working TOC. So I can understand why a lot of people either don't bother or just give up on it. A lot of the self publishing writers probably don't have their own ereader, so they won't know it has other uses other than jumping to a specific location. It wouldn't really surprise me if they were just uploading a doc file and letting the ebook site convert it for them.
mr ploppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 06:18 PM   #9
mr ploppy
Feral Underclass
mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mr ploppy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
mr ploppy's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,622
Karma: 26821535
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Yorkshire, tha noz
Device: 2nd hand paperback
BTW, the missing cover could also be a cost saving exercise. Amazon charges the writer/publisher per byte in transfer fees when it sells, so removing a large image that hardly anyone will bother to look at makes a lot of sense.
mr ploppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2011, 02:54 AM   #10
MartinC
Hanger on
MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
MartinC's Avatar
 
Posts: 148
Karma: 1355233
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dorset, UK
Device: Kindle 3, Galaxy S, Sony PRS-505, Sony tablet
Quote:
A lot of the self publishing writers probably don't have their own ereader, so they won't know it has other uses other than jumping to a specific location.
True. Though if they're going to offer their work to the public in that format the least they could do is get one. It's a basic part of the checking process. If they live in a garret like me they could use Amazon's Kindle Previewer, which is provided (free) for this very purpose. Are there similar packages for other ereaders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by William F View Post
It may not be vital to the reading experience, but it is vital to the perception that (for us indies anyway) we produce books that rival the big publishing houses in quality. It's hard enough to get people to search us out without giving them a half baked product to reward their efforts.
Absolutely.
MartinC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2011, 05:36 AM   #11
JeremyR
Guru
JeremyR ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JeremyR ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JeremyR ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JeremyR ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JeremyR ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JeremyR ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JeremyR ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JeremyR ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JeremyR ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JeremyR ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JeremyR ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JeremyR's Avatar
 
Posts: 973
Karma: 2458402
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: St. Louis
Device: Kindle Keyboard, Nook HD+
I don't think it's so much laziness, so much as there aren't any readily available tools for the average person to create mobi books for Amazon.

You either have Kindlegen, which requires a knowledge of computers (it's a command line program) and HTML (knowing what ncx and opf files are), or you have a plugin for an extremely expensive professional layout program.

Amazon needs to come out with a WYSIWYG editor for Mobi.

I mean, yes, obviously someone could learn HTML and so forth, they'd rather, you know, be writing books.
JeremyR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2011, 10:13 AM   #12
MartinC
Hanger on
MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MartinC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
MartinC's Avatar
 
Posts: 148
Karma: 1355233
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dorset, UK
Device: Kindle 3, Galaxy S, Sony PRS-505, Sony tablet
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyR View Post
I mean, yes, obviously someone could learn HTML and so forth, they'd rather, you know, be writing books.
Goes without saying. But you proofread your writing, don't you? And polish and polish? Shame to waste all that.
MartinC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2011, 11:07 AM   #13
Hellmark
Wizard
Hellmark ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hellmark ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hellmark ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hellmark ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hellmark ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hellmark ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hellmark ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hellmark ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hellmark ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hellmark ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hellmark ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Hellmark's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,549
Karma: 3799999
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: O'Fallon, Missouri, USA
Device: Nokia N800, PRS-505, Nook STR Glowlight, Kindle 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyR View Post
I don't think it's so much laziness, so much as there aren't any readily available tools for the average person to create mobi books for Amazon.

You either have Kindlegen, which requires a knowledge of computers (it's a command line program) and HTML (knowing what ncx and opf files are), or you have a plugin for an extremely expensive professional layout program.

Amazon needs to come out with a WYSIWYG editor for Mobi.

I mean, yes, obviously someone could learn HTML and so forth, they'd rather, you know, be writing books.
I think that is one advantage that ePub has. Some of the apps that people may already have are beginning to support it. I mean, InDesign isn't an uncommon app for those in the publishing world, and it supports ePub. Plus there is Sigil now, which works really well to make good epubs, without a lot of knowledge, and is free.
Hellmark is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Missing TOC Editor in Sigil .4 jmike000 Writers' Corner 5 06-07-2011 12:23 PM
Missing TOC Editor in Sigil 0.4 jmike000 Introduce Yourself 2 06-05-2011 09:22 AM
TOC going missing when using special characters. Deon Conversion 0 02-23-2011 01:11 AM
epub to mobi toc missing wannabee Conversion 7 02-04-2011 10:44 PM
Missing blank spaces in ToC richough3 ePub 3 09-10-2009 05:33 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:04 PM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.