EU Court of Justice on DRM circumvention

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Not saying that you shouldn't spend time worrying over your possible loss of ebooks if that is what you are happy doing, I just don't understand why it seems so important compared to other losses that can and do happen.

I don't worry about it. I've taken steps to ensure it won't happen. Insurance, if you will, except that it costs a little time, not money.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

So do you seriously think this is likely to happen? That there will be no readers or apps available in the next 50 years that will open our currently purchased ebooks.

If DRM is left in place, I not only think it will happen, I'm convinced that it will. And not in 50 years, but MUCH earlier. See what Adobe is doing with the new ADE 3.0 DRM: if they really followed through, all older readers (== all readers now in use) would not be able to open new books.

That means that at some point, there will be readers that cannot open old books. The chance that this happens will be a lot smaller if DRM is removed.

No matter whether I lose something due to my fault or someone else's, the loss is still of the same magnitude to me.

Not in my case. If I lose stuff just because some third party thinks I shouldn't have it anymore for whatever reason, there will be trouble. If I pay for something, I want to be able to use it as long as I have the means to do that (in the case of ebooks, have a reader or program that can open them), not as long as someone else allows me to use it.

I just can't understand the outrage over something that may never happen expressed by a few. My condo gets broken into (not my fault in most instances) and someone steals my books or TV and my insurance does not cover it. Nasty of course, but how much time and energy should I put into obsessing about the possibility.

The difference is that, if DRM-support is dropped, that this is done WILLINGLY by a third party. As hardcastle said, you don't have any power to stop them. Suppose Adobe wants to force everybody to the new DRM-scheme. They actually manage to force sellers to upgrade their servers, obsoleting your current reader. They also manage to force manufacturers to stop supporting the old DRM in their new readers.

Now you can't open new books on old readers, or old books on new readers. You can only read new books on new readers.

This stuff is not far-fetched. It has happened with computers and software, countless times through IT history.

Compare it to a TV. I buy a TV, and watch it for 8 years. Then, suddenly: *boom*. It breaks down. Meh. Shit happens.

What would you say if you suddenly don't have any image anymore, and when you start to investigate it, the manufacturer tells you: "Oh, that's the old model from 2006. You can't receive new shows on it anymore, because we have decided not to support that TV anymore. The providers are not allowed to send any signals to that TV starting Sept 1, 2014."

That would be ridiculous, and not accepted by anyone, but that is exactly what DRM does. For some reasons, this kind of stuff is often accepted when it comes to computers and software, but it would be unacceptable everywhere else.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I just can't understand the outrage over something that may never happen expressed by a few. My condo gets broken into (not my fault in most instances) and someone steals my books or TV and my insurance does not cover it. Nasty of course, but how much time and energy should I put into obsessing about the possibility.

I guess I am just different in that few of my possessions are as easily replaceable as ebooks. Even groceries I would have to go to the store to replace. Hopefully my freezer doesn't blow up. I'd be really annoyed about that.

I'm confused. Does your contents insurance not cover thefts of electronics and pbooks, or spoiled food from freezer breakdown? Those are standard coverage items here. Example (there are also policies with unlimited coverage, this is just a basic level policy. Mine also covers accidental damage or theft of valuables when I'm away from home with them - say, if I've just bought a TV and am transporting it home when I crash the car, or if my laptop is stolen on a bus).

[gweeks]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I just can't understand the outrage over something that may never happen expressed by a few.

Given that I've lost books already it's not some maybe never happen event. Google "Rocket ebook" and "embiid publishing"

Greg

[crossi]

I don't worry. I simply take reasonable precautions to avoid ANY loses. Not just ebooks. How much precautions depends on the possible loss and how much trouble/expense the precaution would take. Since removing the DRM takes maybe a minute per book, less if I bothered to set up the Calibre addon, there seems little reason not to take that precaution. Backing up those ebooks is just part of my regular backup schedule and takes no additional time. The possible loss of my ebooks isn't more significant than the possible loss of my other possesions but it is not insignificant either.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by crossi

That might be very well for you if you never reread or have few ebooks. I have about 900 ebooks probably average cost of $5 so that is about $4500. For me that's enough that I feel the need to take precautions just like I lock my car when I leave it. Not quite like replacing some groceries. Not taking precautions with that much money would just be stupid.

Keeping with the car analogy, this new DRM is equivalent to your petrol stations saying they will only sell Biofuel going forward, Oh, and it's illegal to modify your engine to run on it.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

The difference is that, if DRM-support is dropped, that this is done WILLINGLY by a third party. As hardcastle said, you don't have any power to stop them. Suppose Adobe wants to force everybody to the new DRM-scheme. They actually manage to force sellers to upgrade their servers, obsoleting your current reader. They also manage to force manufacturers to stop supporting the old DRM in their new readers.

Happened very recently in the UK with television, TV transmission was switched from analogue to digital so old TV's no longer worked (or you needed a set top box).

Interestingly the overwhelming response of the TV watching public was "Meh". Admittedly digital TV's had been out for a while so it wasn't brand new kit being obsoleted, but the parallels are there.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Interestingly the overwhelming response of the TV watching public was "Meh". Admittedly digital TV's had been out for a while so it wasn't brand new kit being obsoleted, but the parallels are there.

There was little fuss because it was very well managed. Also, by the time the analogue switchoff happened (region by region), 'set-top' boxes were widely available and cheap (ca £30). There was also special provision of free equipment and help with installation for the elderly and disabled.

[carpetmojo]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

There was little fuss because it was very well managed. Also, by the time the analogue switchoff happened (region by region), 'set-top' boxes were widely available and cheap (ca £30). There was also special provision of free equipment and help with installation for the elderly and disabled.

Yes, I hadn't thought of that really - it was very well managed indeed, unusual for such a fairly huge operation.

The DAB "revolution" is, sadly, not looking like being as smooth ............

[gweeks]

Anybody remember DIVX. Hurt enough people and things will happen. Anybody that bought a DIVX player got $100 back on the player and all of the Gold disk purchases has to be refunded by Circuit City.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

There was little fuss because it was very well managed. Also, by the time the analogue switchoff happened (region by region), 'set-top' boxes were widely available and cheap (ca £30). There was also special provision of free equipment and help with installation for the elderly and disabled.

We had similar programs in the US, plus the transition was scheduled and delayed a few times. There was remarkably little fuss.

I was hoping to capitalize on the confusion by offering my services to set up converter boxes and such. Had zero interest.

[DiapDealer]

I still can't bring myself to throw away my worthless, 3.5-inch LCD, handheld, analog TV. I get it out occasionally and watch the scanning bar go back and forth--utterly uninterrupted across both bands. *sniffle*

[ApK]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I still can't bring myself to throw away my worthless, 3.5-inch LCD, handheld, analog TV. I get it out occasionally and watch the scanning bar go back and forth--utterly uninterrupted across both bands. *sniffle*

Funny, I just threw mine out a few months ago. I had considered using it as monitor on my in-house analog distribution system, but decided I needed to learn to let go.

[sirmaru]

Old things get lost all the time. My favorite print bible in German from 1930 has decomposing pages. Every time I open it, pieces of pages decompose.

I had great games for my Radio Shack TRS 80 from 1978 but they are now gone forever.

I had even greater games for DOS and they are now gone.

I used to play Mankind, a game for thousands at one time, for several years and it is now gone forever.

My old Microsoft eBooks are gone forever as are my old Sony eBooks now. My old Adobe eBooks are also gone.

All my parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts are also gone.

That is why I only read a book ONCE and never look back. Its possible I may have even read some books twice since I may have forgotten when I read it first.

I never remove DRM because the license for my purchase of that eBook REQUIRED that I leave it in place. I tend to honor licenses on games and eBooks I buy.

Preserving software by some means is also a waste of time. Why would I still want to have a copy of MS DOS 2.2 still available?

My old cars and TV's are also gone forever. Would I really want my old Modal A Ford back to replace my new self driving car?

That is why I only buy an eBook to READ IT and would not dream of "collecting" thousands of old eBooks. They are JUNK after I've read it. Thus, Calibre and Apprentice Alf for me are no better than a defective time machine which never can really function.

Its best to just forget the past and MOVE ON.

By the way, all this DRM removal going on now to store eBooks for future use may be for naught. New eReaders may be introduced at some time which will make all the old eBook files OBSOLETE since the structure of the new eBooks may be totally different.

If someone had made illegal Xerox copies of print books back in 1961, they still could not be read on our eReaders of today.

Removing DRM now for eBooks may be going down the same hopeless road as was taken by those who sought to make illegal hand copies of papyrus books which are all OBSOLETE today.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ApK

Funny, I just threw mine out a few months ago. I had considered using it as monitor on my in-house analog distribution system, but decided I needed to learn to let go.

I'm not quite ready. It doesn't take up any space, and I still have fond memories of clusters of family/friends huddling around it--furtively struggling trying to keep up with games at functions where doing so was most likely entirely inappropriate. *sigh*

It can stay in the electronics museum box for a while longer yet.