PC sales Suffer Biggest Slump in years

[pl001]

Originally Posted by taustin

We can certainly hope. They're not doing well now. ZDNet, who have traditionally be hard core Microsoft fanboys, have pronounced Windows is dead

As much as Microsoft annoys me at times, I will certainly not hope for that. That would make my job hell.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by pl001

As much as Microsoft annoys me at times, I will certainly not hope for that. That would make my job hell.

It would provide some incentive for people who actually understand how to make a user interface to focus on Linux, maybe.

[JAcheson]

Originally Posted by taustin

They didn't cut any corners. They went to a lot of effort to make Windows 8 suck that much.

"Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence." - Napoleon Bonaparte

Microsoft has forgotten nearly everything that they ever did right.

There was a time when the online help provided with their products was simple, straightforward and useful, for instance. Now I just go straight to Google instead of wasting time with it.

As for Windows 8, I found that I dislike it vehemently. I was surprised that I hated it so much, as I've used Vista and didn't find that nearly so objectionable. Windows 8 offers nothing new that I want, gets in the way of what I need, and the design seems just obviously terrible in places. Seriously, what moron thought invisible popup menus were a good idea?

The most compelling reason I can think of to upgrade my PC right now is Lara Croft's spiffy new hairdo.

So, people don't like Windows 8, don't really need to upgrade their PCs, and the economy is still terrible, so people are putting off big purchases.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by JAcheson

"Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence." - Napoleon Bonaparte

They've made it quite clear that they intended what they ended up with. As of yesterday's new of the largest drop in PC sales ever, they're rethinking, apparently, but they were very competent at making Windows 8 suck.

Originally Posted by JAcheson

Microsoft has forgotten nearly everything that they ever did right.

They spend the better of of two decades developing the standard for GUIs. Then tossed it all out the windows. So to speak.

Originally Posted by JAcheson

There was a time when the online help provided with their products was simple, straightforward and useful, for instance. Now I just go straight to Google instead of wasting time with it.

Google is the best place to search TechNet anyway. Has been for a long time.

Originally Posted by JAcheson

As for Windows 8, I found that I dislike it vehemently. I was surprised that I hated it so much, as I've used Vista and didn't find that nearly so objectionable.

Vista was a bastard stepchild, but it was still Windows. 8 isn't Windows. It's a cell phone interface. (Now that I think about it, this is pretty much what they did with Visual Basic. VB.NET wasn't Visual Basic. It was some bastard flavor of C, with a VB hood oranment pasted on top.)

Originally Posted by JAcheson

Windows 8 offers nothing new that I want, gets in the way of what I need, and the design seems just obviously terrible in places. Seriously, what moron thought invisible popup menus were a good idea?

The most compelling reason I can think of to upgrade my PC right now is Lara Croft's spiffy new hairdo.

So, people don't like Windows 8, don't really need to upgrade their PCs, and the economy is still terrible, so people are putting off big purchases.

Windows 9 will be out in a couple of years. And apparently, Win8 SP1 will have a Start button in the usual place, and a way to book directly to the desktop. Whoda thunk it?

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by taustin

They're not doing well now. ZDNet, who have traditionally be hard core Microsoft fanboys, have pronounced Windows is dead

Typical of overstated tech journalism. Everything is either the best of the best or worst of the worst.

Windows can't be dead because of the enormous business investment in custom software, often tied to Microsoft Office, that would take a decade or two to reproduce (same time it took to produce). The true death of Windows would be what the chicken littles said that Y2K would be.

I'm posting from Linux. For the last 45 minutes, I've been trying to figure out how to upgrade from OpenSUSE 12.2 to 12.3. To make a long story short, the process is making me feel like an idiot. Except that -- I know I'm not the only one struggling, as some advise wiping your old system and starting over! So I'm about ready to give up. Putting on a Microsoft service pack -- or customizing Windows 8 to hide new interface features -- is, by comparison, quite easy.

As an in-house business software developer, I can see why independent software developers wouldn't like Windows 8. You don't know which interface to program for. Me, I know to program for the old one.

The greater precision of the mouse over the touch screen makes it superior. Microsoft is a big company, but they aren't big enough to overturn that reality. It's true that touch is growing, but the mouse GUI is going to remain big for a long time. Apple is too expensive, Linux requires too much user smarts, and Microsoft is far from death.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

I'm posting from Linux. For the last 45 minutes, I've been trying to figure out how to upgrade from OpenSUSE 12.2 to 12.3. To make a long story short, the process is making me feel like an idiot. Except that -- I know I'm not the only one struggling, as some advise wiping your old system and starting over! So I'm about ready to give up. Putting on a Microsoft service pack -- or customizing Windows 8 to hide new interface features -- is, by comparison, quite easy.

I don't know OpenSUSE. Haven't even attempted to install it in *many* years, but Ubuntu upgrades within a dot version are mindlessly simple and a recent complete upgrade from 10.04 to 12.04 was just plain simple. Yes, it took nearly an hour to download everything, but in the end, a reboot and I was running the latest.

I support too many Microsoft users that don't even know how to do security updates. Dumb users are dumb users no matter what the OS.

[Graham]

We are now three days into trying to set up my wife's new Windows 8 laptop, and still far from having even the basics working right.

Is it just me or is there no way to make tiles stay where you want them when you drag a new one in?

Set up of Chromebook: two minutes. I'm loving it more and more.

Graham

[Dulin's Books]

tiles stay where you put them unless you move them. what are you trying to setup? nothing about a factory install of windows 8 on a new computer takes days to set up that i have seen. what are the "basics" that you are referring too?

edit- oh the tiles do move within a group when you drop a new one in the middle of a group

[afv011]

Originally Posted by taustin

They didn't cut any corners. They went to a lot of effort to make Windows 8 suck that much.

Yes, MSFT has elevated this to an art, baffles the mind how they can get things this wrong, you'd think they are trying to make a poor product, and indeed succeeding at it.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

tiles stay where you put them unless you move them. what are you trying to setup? nothing about a factory install of windows 8 on a new computer takes days to set up that i have seen. what are the "basics" that you are referring too?

edit- oh the tiles do move within a group when you drop a new one in the middle of a group

That's exactly it. My wife wants her 'icons' to be arranged in a specific order, but when we drag a new one in to the home screen they all jump about. Every time. And dragging with touch is a nightmare, more than half the time you accidentally start the application. Using the mouse is easier, but it's not an interface built for a mouse.

I'd go straight for start key followed by typing, but my wife doesn't like that. Much of the frustration is coming from her wanting things a specific way - within the metro interface - but it's all jumping around.

She's been installing her Office software - the ones she owns, not the demo versions supplied - but is at a dead end trying to link email and contacts to the apps on the home screen. I think we'll just unpin them and she can go straight back into Outlook 2007. The problems may stem from an issue with her Windows Live account not being the email address she wants. I don't know. I've not had enough time to get to grips with it.

We've watched the Microsoft intro to Windows 8. We've read the supplied Dell version of Windows 8 for Dummies. I've been working in IT for 15 years...

I'm sure it will just take time and throwing out preconceptions, but this is not intuitive.

Windows 8 feels, at this point, as though it is two completely separate interfaces interfering with each other. You breathe a sigh of relief when you're back in the familiar desktop. But it isn't. It's like there's a tablet interface running at the same time and you need to be dealing with programs and apps separately.

Doubtless we'll get used to it, and I can see that launching things via Metro is no slower than before, but for now it just feels awkward to have your whole screen replaced by a different UI when navigating.

Graham

[Graham]

Following up (apologies), one of the issues we have is that the email address she used on sign-up is not the one she wants as the main account on the machine. However, we can't see how to change it. You get taken to account settings on line, and it can be changed there, but once changed we can't seem to log back into the laptop.

This isn't a case of us wanting to dislike Windows 8 from the outset. Quite the opposite. We both really like Windows, and were looking forward excitedly to the shiny new laptop. But it feels like we're hitting brick wall after brick wall.

Graham

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Graham

That's exactly it. My wife wants her 'icons' to be arranged in a specific order, but when we drag a new one in to the home screen they all jump about. Every time. And dragging with touch is a nightmare, more than half the time you accidentally start the application. Using the mouse is easier, but it's not an interface built for a mouse.

I'd go straight for start key followed by typing, but my wife doesn't like that. Much of the frustration is coming from her wanting things a specific way - within the metro interface - but it's all jumping around.

She's been installing her Office software - the ones she owns, not the demo versions supplied - but is at a dead end trying to link email and contacts to the apps on the home screen. I think we'll just unpin them and she can go straight back into Outlook 2007. The problems may stem from an issue with her Windows Live account not being the email address she wants. I don't know. I've not had enough time to get to grips with it.

We've watched the Microsoft intro to Windows 8. We've read the supplied Dell version of Windows 8 for Dummies. I've been working in IT for 15 years...

I'm sure it will just take time and throwing out preconceptions, but this is not intuitive.

Windows 8 feels, at this point, as though it is two completely separate interfaces interfering with each other. You breathe a sigh of relief when you're back in the familiar desktop. But it isn't. It's like there's a tablet interface running at the same time and you need to be dealing with programs and apps separately.

Doubtless we'll get used to it, and I can see that launching things via Metro is no slower than before, but for now it just feels awkward to have your whole screen replaced by a different UI when navigating.

Graham

Something I don't quite understand here. If you don't want to deal with the Metro UI, then you really never see it again after starting up the machine and pressing the "Desktop" icon, except when opening programs you don't have desktop shortcuts for. Even then it is much faster opening programs this way instead of going through the menu tree if your mouse has a wheel. You don't have to use Metro apps at all --- I personally don't use any of them on my PC. I want to have as many windows open as possible, not just two.

What is different from Windows 7 when actually using Windows 8 on the desktop (except that Windows 8 is much speedier and I can get to all settings much more quickly via the sidebar)?

There is a tablet interface and I use it on my Surface RT, but on my PC I virtually forget it is there. For programs I use often I use shortcuts. Now, is it worth upgrading to from Windows 7? Probably not. It is a faster Windows 7 with a tablet interface that can be called up for those that want it or need it -- but that stays hidden for those who don't.

But to go out of your way to buy a new PC with Windows 7 instead of Windows 8 -- that makes no sense. As for the setup, we upgraded my wife's PC (she is a total technophobe) and after installing the programs she needs she was ready to go. No need to spend another 2 minutes to set anything up.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Something I don't quite understand here. If you don't want to deal with the Metro UI, then you really never see it again after starting up the machine and pressing the "Desktop" icon

Well maybe that's the answer. But she does want to deal with the Metro UI, or at least is trying to.

Graham

[Graham]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

As for the setup, we upgraded my wife's PC (she is a total technophobe) and after installing the programs she needs she was ready to go. No need to spend another 2 minutes to set anything up.

Well, it's the installing her programs and getting them available for use where she wants them that's taking the time and causing frustration, being complicated by these account popups and problems with the email account associated with her Windows account. We haven't got to the 2 minutes after that yet!

Graham

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Graham

Well, it's the installing her programs and getting them available for use where she wants them that's taking the time and causing frustration, being complicated by these account popups and problems with the email account associated with her Windows account. We haven't got to the 2 minutes after that yet!

Graham

Then you are not quite making a fair comparison to the Chromebook. You could just as well use Webapps in Windows. And when she has a number of programs she likes that would not be available on the Chromebook then you can't really compare the two.

Just make sure you use the Windows 7 programs, not the Windows 8 ones (except those specifically mention "desktop"), those are all for Metro.

And even very old legacy apps run -- recently Adobe gave away free Acrobat 8 and Photoshop copies on their websites. Work fine after I installed them with XP compatibility -- but they are not supposed to run according to the specs.