list of best free Books??? please share!

[DixieGal]

cmbs, I have a fresh example for you about the process. Just this morning, in another thread, the discussion was about a book that reads like an old timey tall tale. Well, I remembered reading "Titanium Mike Saves The Day" by David D. Levine last year. Highly recommend it. I expected to find it at Fictionwise or Books on Board. No luck. Then did a Google search for it. Went to Levine's website, where I originally got it, but it is no longer available to download. Another Google search showed it at several sites, but when I checked them out, they did not have any talk of copyrights at all.

I have the book in my library in several formats. I would love to share it with everyone. But it appears that the author has withdrawn it from being downloaded legally. Therefore, I was not able to provide a link to the story.

It is as simple as choosing to do the right thing, even if it is not what you want.



For reference, see recent news articles about this crop of recent college grads, how they have been coddled all through their entire lives by too-involved parents, how they cheated their way through college, and now expect the working world to give a damn about their oh-so-special opinions and unearned sense of entitlement. My niece is "extra-special" because she was one of eleven valedictorians in her high school graduating class. Yep, all 11 of them tromped up to the podium for their "I'm Super Great!" awards. That's not valedictory ... that's a pep squad.

I'll be over here in my cubicle grumbling about how much I hate the Kaylees and Trevors who are now becoming adults according to the calendar but still live at home with mom and think they have a valid opinon about anything when they are really full of crap and refuse to accept a differing view about either their opinions or crappiness. The Brylees and Codies of the world are getting on my nerves this morning.

I need cheesecake and DECAF coffee.

[RWood]

Originally Posted by cmbs

I've seen some of your books on this website. Do you check them before posting? I've found footnotes with no links so the reader has no idea they're there. I've found links that go on for pages and pages. I've found tables that are spread out all over the place - neither formatted as tables nor formatted as readable text. Seems anyone taking care to do a good job and checking their work before posting would have caught and corrected these things.

And I don't have a secret agenda. It's only secret to those of you who read my comments looking for something that isn't there. You completely miss what I actually said.

If a reply is completely off point of what I said, yes I call it off point. This is also not complicated nor secret.

You are right; there have been some problems over time with the Mobipocket books that have required that I change tools for their production. While this did extend the production workflow, the resultant volumes have met with favor.

Many people have cared enough about the books to send me PMs of the errors that they spotted in the books and these have been fixed. Since I have never received a PM from you or a post in the original thread, I can easily conclude that either you don’t really care about the books and are just throwing out generic problems that everyone faces from time-to-time in creating electronic books or you do care but feel that I don’t care about the books I produce (the “one piece of slop is as good as another piece of slop” theory.)

So it comes down to this, until today you never commented on the content, proofing, or formatting of anything I posted. Now today you have a laundry list of generic problems with one or more unnamed books that I posted at sometime over the past two years.I know where some of the problems are. I have requested in open forums for comments and corrections requests for the books I have posted. I have received comments from some (never you) and I have corrected the books in question. Currently I am still revising all of the Harvard Classics for a version 2 release. They will be finished when they are ready. Parts of the series represent some of my earliest work in creating LRF files for the Sony and the very first Mobipocket PRC and eBookwise IMP files. (And thanks to Nick IMP for the REB.)

So if you have any real issues with the books, please let me know rather than just sitting there and taking pot shots at book proofing and formatting in general.

[cmbs]

Originally Posted by NatCh

After much consideration, I think cmbs actually meant to pose some general questions about sites that host free content, presumably to start a discussion of them.

Putting the original questions in a list form, with minor text adjustments to accommodate that format a bit better:

• If a blog [or other website], which is not affiliated with a legitimate bookseller, is hosting and giving away hundreds of free ebooks they did not create (and therefore [presumably] don't own a copyright to), how [can you tell if] the downloads are legal?
• Because they say so?
• Where [do] they get legal rights to distribute the books?
• [Do] you care if [that] download is legal or not?

As I said originally, they're good points to consider -- probably worthy of their own thread, but since we've never been terribly fussy around here about threads taking new directions on their own, there's no need to start a new one at this point.

If my eyes are not deceiving me, then I am very surprised and happy about this.

Thank you very much for actually reading what I said and obviously giving it some thought and coming up with . . . what I said! And thank you for posting it too.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by cmbs

If my eyes are not deceiving me, then I am very surprised and happy about this.

Thank you very much for actually reading what I said and obviously giving it some thought and coming up with . . . what I said! And thank you for posting it too.

Great!

And now that we're on the same page, I suppose we could revisit the answers I gave to your original questions -- which questions we now agree that we agree about.

Granted, those answers were formulated under my mistaken apparently impression that you were referring to the specific links in the post that preceded your questions, so they don't, themselves answer your intended general questions, but I think the process I went through to formulate them does answer part of what we now agree you were asking, namely how do you know whether the offered free downloads are legal?

That answer being that you just have to check for yourself. Yes, they can be sneaky little so and sos, and pretend that what they've got is legal when it isn't, and there's really no way you can be absolutely sure that a site is legit, but a certain amount of due diligence is in order, no matter what.

In my experiences dealing with such matters as a moderator here (i.e. checking linked sites to see if they seem to be legit or not) I've found that most sites that aren't concerned with the legality of what they're passing don't bother to pretend that they are. If they claim to be legit, and invite take-down notices, they're probably at least trying to be legit.

Of course knowing a bit extra helps on that front too: for example, if they've got downloads of books that have never been released as e-versions, they're simply not legit no matter what. Harry Potter springs to mind as the most obvious case in point.

While I have had some experience dealing with identifying such sites, I want to be clear that I don't consider myself any sort of ultimate authority on the matter, generally, we mods discuss sites that seem to be suspect and one or another of us will notice something on the ones that aren't legit, it's kind of a collaborative effort for us.

[cmbs]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

cmbs, I have a fresh example for you about the process. Just this morning, in another thread, the discussion was about a book that reads like an old timey tall tale. Well, I remembered reading "Titanium Mike Saves The Day" by David D. Levine last year. Highly recommend it. I expected to find it at Fictionwise or Books on Board. No luck. Then did a Google search for it. Went to Levine's website, where I originally got it, but it is no longer available to download. Another Google search showed it at several sites, but when I checked them out, they did not have any talk of copyrights at all.

I have the book in my library in several formats. I would love to share it with everyone. But it appears that the author has withdrawn it from being downloaded legally. Therefore, I was not able to provide a link to the story.

It is as simple as choosing to do the right thing, even if it is not what you want.



For reference, see recent news articles about this crop of recent college grads, how they have been coddled all through their entire lives by too-involved parents, how they cheated their way through college, and now expect the working world to give a damn about their oh-so-special opinions and unearned sense of entitlement. My niece is "extra-special" because she was one of eleven valedictorians in her high school graduating class. Yep, all 11 of them tromped up to the podium for their "I'm Super Great!" awards. That's not valedictory ... that's a pep squad.

I'll be over here in my cubicle grumbling about how much I hate the Kaylees and Trevors who are now becoming adults according to the calendar but still live at home with mom and think they have a valid opinon about anything when they are really full of crap and refuse to accept a differing view about either their opinions or crappiness. The Brylees and Codies of the world are getting on my nerves this morning.

I need cheesecake and DECAF coffee.

Doing the right thing is often not the easiest way to go, but if you care about your own sense of morals and respecting the rights of others, then you have to do it. I have formatted books that I'd love to share with the world but the authors say no so I don't. Because I respect their wishes. Because the world doesn't revolve around me and I wouldn't be happy with myself if I distributed something that wasn't mine to distribute without the permission of the owner.

I also read that story and noticed it and several of the ones that were freebies last year are not on Fictionwise at all anymore, I was going to recommend one (might have been that one - it was good) and found it missing. If they don't want it distributed, then it shouldn't be. How much someone wants it or the fact it was free last year are completely irrelevent.

I hope that's some really good cheesecake.

[DixieGal]

It was nominated for a Hugo or something. I think maybe it is not available, because maybe it is being put into a "Year's Best" type of anthology? Merely conjecture, absolutely nothing to base that on.

[nekokami]

It can be quite difficult to tell if a site offering an author's work is authentic, as the recent story about the false Maya Angelou on Twitter shows us. At one time (before becoming so involved with e-books) I considered starting a service to set up Amazon referral "stores" for authors to sell their own books, the idea being that they would then get a cut even of used book sales. The question of how to validate author identity was one of the stopping points for me. (I did eventually set this up for one author, though: the Adrilankha Book Shop for author Steven Brust. I happened to be communicating directly with the author, and with others who knew him, sufficiently to feel confident of his identity.)

To make things even trickier, of course, copyright law is complex, with different rules in place for different periods of time, and no online resource to easily check the copyright status of a particular book in a particular jurisdiction (though Google may end up helping with that problem).

So to answer the questions: I generally assume that any free download of a work I believe to be in copyright is suspect unless it's on a publisher's or long-time commercial ebook retailer's site (e.g. Fictionwise). I make an exception for websites purporting to be relatively high-profile authors, because I assume the agents or publishers of said authors would force a take-down in those cases. I also make an exception for works by authors such as Cory Doctorow, who are well known in their support for free distribution of their books (and I think I can safely assume if Doctorow suddenly changed his policy, I'd hear about it here).

And I make an exception for MobileRead, because I have insight to the monitoring process that goes on behind the scenes and the vigilance with which this matter is regarded by the members of the moderation team. I feel confident in saying that if a given title was brought to the attention of the moderators as being in copyright and not authorized for distribution, it would be removed from the uploads section promptly, with an apology to the author in question.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

It was nominated for a Hugo or something. I think maybe it is not available, because maybe it is being put into a "Year's Best" type of anthology? Merely conjecture, absolutely nothing to base that on.

I'm sure Penguin asked that it be pulled when it was decided to include it in the Nebula Awards Showcase 2009 anthology.

[DixieGal]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

I'm sure Penguin asked that it be pulled when it was decided to include it in the Nebula Awards Showcase 2009 anthology.

Ah Ha! My psychic powers are working again!

I hope you will all get the opportunity to read it and enjoy it as much as I did!

[cmbs]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Great!

And now that we're on the same page, I suppose we could revisit the answers I gave to your original questions -- which questions we now agree that we agree about.

Granted, those answers were formulated under my mistaken apparently impression that you were referring to the specific links in the post that preceded your questions, so they don't, themselves answer your intended general questions, but I think the process I went through to formulate them does answer part of what we now agree you were asking, namely how do you know whether the offered free downloads are legal?

That answer being that you just have to check for yourself. Yes, they can be sneaky little so and sos, and pretend that what they've got is legal when it isn't, and there's really no way you can be absolutely sure that a site is legit, but a certain amount of due diligence is in order, no matter what.

In my experiences dealing with such matters as a moderator here (i.e. checking linked sites to see if they seem to be legit or not) I've found that most sites that aren't concerned with the legality of what they're passing don't bother to pretend that they are. If they claim to be legit, and invite take-down notices, they're probably at least trying to be legit.

Of course knowing a bit extra helps on that front too: for example, if they've got downloads of books that have never been released as e-versions, they're simply not legit no matter what. Harry Potter springs to mind as the most obvious case in point.

While I have had some experience dealing with identifying such sites, I want to be clear that I don't consider myself any sort of ultimate authority on the matter, generally, we mods discuss sites that seem to be suspect and one or another of us will notice something on the ones that aren't legit, it's kind of a collaborative effort for us.

On the contrary, I find a lot of illegal download sites do have copyright notices on them. They often say they're legal because of Fair Use laws, but not always. Sometimes it's just a straightforward copyright notice. Sometimes they even write up something trying to look impressive.

To me the main question is what are they distributing and how do they have the right to distribute it? As you said, some books are obviously illegal. Some books are obviously legal like Public Domain books. But why does any one blog or similar website have the right to distribute a lot of still in copyright ebooks from a lot of authors? MOST DON'T. Booksellers presumably do. Collaborative sites where authors go to publish their work do.

Even if an author is giving a book away for free, that doesn't make it legal for everyone else to do the same. You've got to read the specific copyright notice on each book and if there's none - then nobody has permission to distribute. It's something that isn't automatic, but has to be given.

Individual author sites will have the work of the one author, and usually a lot more from them, like regular blog posts, announcements, etc.

I think if you do want to be careful then you do need to have a little knowledge because some of these sites will try to fool you if you don't know any better. A copyright notice is not assurance that the distribution is legal. It can be hard to tell. If I'm suspicious, I leave a site alone.

[cmbs]

Originally Posted by nekokami

It can be quite difficult to tell if a site offering an author's work is authentic, as the recent story about the false Maya Angelou on Twitter shows us. At one time (before becoming so involved with e-books) I considered starting a service to set up Amazon referral "stores" for authors to sell their own books, the idea being that they would then get a cut even of used book sales. The question of how to validate author identity was one of the stopping points for me. (I did eventually set this up for one author, though: the Adrilankha Book Shop for author Steven Brust. I happened to be communicating directly with the author, and with others who knew him, sufficiently to feel confident of his identity.)

To make things even trickier, of course, copyright law is complex, with different rules in place for different periods of time, and no online resource to easily check the copyright status of a particular book in a particular jurisdiction (though Google may end up helping with that problem).

So to answer the questions: I generally assume that any free download of a work I believe to be in copyright is suspect unless it's on a publisher's or long-time commercial ebook retailer's site (e.g. Fictionwise). I make an exception for websites purporting to be relatively high-profile authors, because I assume the agents or publishers of said authors would force a take-down in those cases. I also make an exception for works by authors such as Cory Doctorow, who are well known in their support for free distribution of their books (and I think I can safely assume if Doctorow suddenly changed his policy, I'd hear about it here).

And I make an exception for MobileRead, because I have insight to the monitoring process that goes on behind the scenes and the vigilance with which this matter is regarded by the members of the moderation team. I feel confident in saying that if a given title was brought to the attention of the moderators as being in copyright and not authorized for distribution, it would be removed from the uploads section promptly, with an apology to the author in question.

All good points.

On my blog I link to a lot of individual author sites, beginners, people you've never heard of (along with others you have heard of). The internet gives new authors a great way to get readers and feedback. I think all the sites I link to are legit, if I am suspicious, I don't link. But as you say, I can't know for sure. I check if they are offering only works of the one author (themselves) and look around at the website and try to get a feel for it. Distributing the works of several authors can be suspicious, particularly if it's hundreds. I know one author site with pdf files from about 6 other authors, I think is legit. You need a little knowledge, and then you just need to assess it for yourself.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by cmbs

To me the main question is what are they distributing and how do they have the right to distribute it?

[snip]

But why does any one blog or similar website have the right to distribute a lot of still in copyright ebooks from a lot of authors? MOST DON'T.

That's quite likely the case, and any place giving content such as that away for free is certainly automatically suspicious. Any place selling it a bit less so, since they're a bit more visible and more likely to draw publisher/author/lawyer attention.

Originally Posted by cmbs

Even if an author is giving a book away for free, that doesn't make it legal for everyone else to do the same.

No it certainly doesn't! We've had to pull links to such things several times here at MobileRead, even before we started hosting the uploads section. In fact I recall one incident that we had to take down some fan fiction because, while it's usually ignored by authors/publishers, it's also, technically, not legal.

Originally Posted by cmbs

You've got to read the specific copyright notice on each book and if there's none - then nobody has permission to distribute. It's something that isn't automatic, but has to be given.

Excellent advice. Unfortunately, you often have to download the file to see the copyright info, even at indisputably legitimate places like MobiPocket Fictionwise, and the like.

Originally Posted by cmbs

Individual author sites will have the work of the one author, and usually a lot more from them, like regular blog posts, announcements, etc.

Most of the ones I've seen do fit what you're describing.

Originally Posted by cmbs

I think if you do want to be careful then you do need to have a little knowledge because some of these sites will try to fool you if you don't know any better. A copyright notice is not assurance that the distribution is legal. It can be hard to tell. If I'm suspicious, I leave a site alone.

And that's one of the better, and better worded "rules of thumb" I've seen on the matter.

[cmbs]

"Excellent advice. Unfortunately, you often have to download the file to see the copyright info, even at indisputably legitimate places like MobiPocket Fictionwise, and the like."

This is true, but I was talking about books being legally distributed by the author, or any legit site (like we talked about freebies from Fictionwise earlier). So downloading wouldn't be the problem. The point was even though it may be legally distributed somewhere, doesn't mean it's legal to distribute it in other places. So if a blog is redistributing books that are free elsewhere, that doesn't automatically mean the blog downloads are legal.

I see a lot of blogs giving away free ebooks, most of which I think are not legal or are at least what I'd call suspicious. And sites like Blogger will not take them down. They have to get complaints from each individual copyright owner with proof before they'll make the blog owner remove that one book. I have found some file hosting sites that will delete the illegal downloads and close accounts if it continues. But a lot of these sites don't care and won't remove them even when it's obvious the downloads are illegal. So you can't count on websites to do any policing either. There are sites I trust, but you have to assess them for yourself, again. You can't just assume this is a big well known website so they wouldn't allow anyone to use it illegally.

---
Correction to the first sentence of the last paragraph above: I see a lot of blogs giving away free ebooks, MANY of which I think are not legal or are at least suspicious. Many of the blogs I see giving away free ebooks are author blogs, and most of those I think are fine.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by cmbs

This is true, but I was talking about books being legally distributed by the author, or any legit site (like we talked about freebies from Fictionwise earlier). So downloading wouldn't be the problem. The point was even though it may be legally distributed somewhere, doesn't mean it's legal to distribute it in other places. So if a blog is redistributing books that are free elsewhere, that doesn't automatically mean the blog downloads are legal.

Here one has to make a distinction between hosting a book upload and merely linking to a book upload. By "redistributing" do you mean the former, the latter, or both?

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by cmbs

I have found some file hosting sites that will delete the illegal downloads and close accounts if it continues. But a lot of these sites don't care and won't remove them even when it's obvious the downloads are illegal. So you can't count on websites to do any policing either. There are sites I trust, but you have to assess them for yourself, again. You can't just assume this is a big well known website so they wouldn't allow anyone to use it illegally.

I certainly think that a site that hosts content (be it books, music, pictures, or whatever) has a responsibility to remove hosted content once someone points out a problem with it. Personally, I think that ought to take the form of trying to follow up and see if the complaint is valid. And if the complaint turns out to not be valid, the site operators should back off.

That's pretty much what we try to do here: if someone points out a file that seems suspicious to them, we remove it from being downloadable and try and figure out what the story really is with the book in question. Once we do that we proceed accordingly.

As it happens, when we realized that we had an issue vis a vis U.S. copyright law with a chunk of our uploads we split the hosting to one server in Canada and a second one in the U.S. so that we could host the most content we could in compliance with the relevant laws as best we could figure them out, great murky mess that they are. At the time we mods actually divided up the uploads between us, and checked them to see which server they belonged on. That was quite a mess, and we had a lot fewer books then than we do now.

At the same time, I don't really feel that it's a hosting site's responsibility to go through everything that's uploaded to it and check for legality -- there's just too much to do that with if the site has any quantity of content at all.