Loaning and exchanging e-books - is this legal?

[daviddem]

Hi,

I am new to this forum and the world of e-books, and not a copyright specialist. I have searched the forum for the answer to this, but could not find it. I know copyright laws vary from one country to the next, but let's say "in most cases"

1) So let's say I buy a paper book. I read it and I like it. I talk about it to my friend or a member of my family, and I loan it to him. Maybe he loans me one of his books in return. Is this legal?

2) People part of a club or small community loan and exchange books between them. Is this legal?

3) Same question as 1) and 2), but with e-books. Note that the people involved do NOT make copies, but loan and receive the originals from their peers. If you answer this, please don't bring DRM in as an argument, since DRM is only cosmetic and easily circumvented

4) If I do 3) on this board, am I going to get kicked out? If not, why is there not an e-book loan and exchange section on this forum?

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by daviddem

Hi,

I am new to this forum and the world of e-books, and not a copyright specialist. I have searched the forum for the answer to this, but could not find it. I know copyright laws vary from one country to the next, but let's say "in most cases"

1) So let's say I buy a paper book. I read it and I like it. I talk about it to my friend or a member of my family, and I loan it to him. Maybe he loans me one of his books in return. Is this legal?

Yes because you actually each own the physical copy of the book

Originally Posted by daviddem

2) People part of a club or small community loan and exchange books between them. Is this legal?

Yes for the same reason

Originally Posted by daviddem

3) Same question as 1) and 2), but with e-books. Note that the people involved do NOT make copies, but loan and receive the originals from their peers. If you answer this, please don't bring DRM in as an argument, since DRM is only cosmetic and easily circumvented

Depends. If the book is not DRM protected, then you are free to exchange the e-book files.

If the book is DRM protected, and that protection is linked to the e-book reading device, then you are free to loan out or exchange e-book devices.

However, it is illegal to give DRM protected files to people who have not purchased a license to use that file.

Originally Posted by daviddem

4) If I do 3) on this board, am I going to get kicked out? If not, why is there not an e-book loan and exchange section on this forum?

Again, not if it is not a DRM protected file. If it is, then yes, I would think you probably would.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by daviddem

I am new to this forum and the world of e-books, and not a copyright specialist. I have searched the forum for the answer to this, but could not find it. I know copyright laws vary from one country to the next, but let's say "in most cases"

I'm increasingly of the opinion that nobody really understands copyright law -- it's just not meant to be understood.

Originally Posted by daviddem

1) So let's say I buy a paper book. I read it and I like it. I talk about it to my friend or a member of my family, and I loan it to him. Maybe he loans me one of his books in return. Is this legal?

Yup. Totally legal in this case. When you buy a copy of a book you're buying a copy. You have the right to do whatever you like with it with the exception of the things prohibited by the copyright notice. Basically, and generally speaking, you can't make full copies and sell or give them away, and in a lot of cases you just can't make full copies.

Originally Posted by daviddem

2) People part of a club or small community loan and exchange books between them. Is this legal?

Yup, same deal.

Originally Posted by daviddem

3) Same question as 1) and 2), but with e-books. Note that the people involved do NOT make copies, but loan and receive the originals from their peers.

Usually this is not legal. For a couple of reasons. The physically grounded one is that an e-book isn't a physical thing, if you give or loan someone else a copy of it, you almost certainly retain a copy of it yourself: it's inherent in the way the files themselves are handled.

The other reason is that generally speaking, e-books are not, technically, sold, but rather licensed like software. You have to get deep into the licensing small print to find it, bit typically the language more or less says that you're buying access to the text for as long as it pleases the license granter to allow you that access. They also often include language that precludes transfers of the license to a third party.

Originally Posted by daviddem

4) If I do 3) on this board, am I going to get kicked out? If not, why is there not an e-book loan and exchange section on this forum?

I think the answer to the second part of #4 is pretty clear from my response to your question #2, so I'll just answer the first part.

You could, but only if you did so persistently after being informed that we don't allow that sort of trading around here (which, I suppose this answer does ). Here's a link to our full forum policy, just for your reference, but the sort answer is that we don't allow it because it is illegal in most places.


In any case, I really appreciate your asking about it, rather than just going ahead and trying it -- it's a lot easier to explain such things beforehand than to clean up the messes after they happen.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Depends. If the book is not DRM protected, then you are free to exchange the e-book files.

I think you may have misapprehended what he's asking, RickyMaveety (or I've misapprehended what you've answered ) -- the fact that a file isn't DRMed is not tacit permission to share it.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by NatCh

I think you may have misapprehended what he's asking, RickyMaveety (or I've misapprehended what you've answered ) -- the fact that a file isn't DRMed is not tacit permission to share it.

Yes, I was really thinking more of the books that are out of copyright, but in digital form when I said that. So .... I stand corrected.

[NatCh]

I'm glad we got that cleared up!

[daviddem]

The other reason is that generally speaking, e-books are not, technically, sold, but rather licensed like software. You have to get deep into the licensing small print to find it, bit typically the language more or less says that you're buying access to the text for as long as it pleases the license granter to allow you that access. They also often include language that precludes transfers of the license to a third party.

That is quite funny, indeed. I am no lawyer, and I have not yet purchased e-books online, so I did not get my eyes on such license agreement yet. But then, according to what you are saying, I am entering a license agreement saying that I and only I can get my eyes on the text? So technically, I could get in trouble if I let my old mom read a book on my e-reader (and so could she)!? In the same spirit, when I am at my parents', I should not use my father's computer because the software on it is licensed to him only!? Wonder why they call that "family edition" and the likes, then...

[Elsi]

Originally Posted by daviddem

That is quite funny, indeed. I am no lawyer, and I have not yet purchased e-books online, so I did not get my eyes on such license agreement yet. But then, according to what you are saying, I am entering a license agreement saying that I and only I can get my eyes on the text? So technically, I could get in trouble if I let my old mom read a book on my e-reader (and so could she)!? In the same spirit, when I am at my parents', I should not use my father's computer because the software on it is licensed to him only!? Wonder why they call that "family edition" and the likes, then...

No ... You're not getting into an agreement that you and only you can get your eyes on the text. You're entering into an agreement that the book can only be read (i.e. loaded onto) on a limited set of devices.

Lend the device with the installed books and everything is good. Lend the "book" to someone to read on their own device and you're probably in breach of your license agreement.

Note that most of the copy-controlled versions of eBooks have provisions for you to license it to a *set* of devices rather than just one. For example, when I buy books from Amazon.com, I can read them on any of the three Kindles which are registered to my account. When I buy a MobiPocket book from Fictionwise, I can read it on my PC, my Blackberry, or my Kindle since those are the PIDs I have registered with Fictionwise.

Some, though not many, of the eBooks that I have bought have the terms-and-conditions included in the text on the title page. Here's a quote from one book I bought from Amazon.com: "eBooks are not transferable. They cannot be sold, shared or given away as it is an infringement on the copyright of this work."

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Elsi

Here's a quote from one book I bought from Amazon.com: "eBooks are not transferable. They cannot be sold, shared or given away as it is an infringement on the copyright of this work."

However, copyright law does not prevent selling, sharing or giving away anything. It prevents *copies*. And derivatives, which are quasi-copies.

Most "sharing" of ebooks involves copies. So would most "sales." However, if you purchased ebooks, burned them to a disc (or downloaded them to a flash drive in the first place), and removed any copies from your hard drive, you should be legally able to sell, share, or whatever that disc. (At least, legally as far as copyright law is concerned. Amazon or Fictionwise's EULA is a different matter, and according to the new Myspace ruling you may be in violation of criminal law if you circumvent one of those.)

[moz]

Originally Posted by Elsi

No ... You're not getting into an agreement that you and only you can get your eyes on the text. You're entering into an agreement that the book can only be read (i.e. loaded onto) on a limited set of devices

So where Fictionwise say "this book is licensed exclusively to you" they actually mean "to the specific device you happen to own right now"? What about people like me that don't own a device?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Elsi

No ... You're not getting into an agreement that you and only you can get your eyes on the text. You're entering into an agreement that the book can only be read (i.e. loaded onto) on a limited set of devices.

That depends where you buy your books from. The terms and conditions on the FictionWise site, for example, specifically do say that the eBook is licensed to you personally, and that nobody else can read it.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by NatCh

IUsually this is not legal. For a couple of reasons. The physically grounded one is that an e-book isn't a physical thing, if you give or loan someone else a copy of it, you almost certainly retain a copy of it yourself: it's inherent in the way the files themselves are handled.

I look at it like this...

Sony & Mobipocket allow me to put in multiple PIDs for a given eBook. So I should be allowed to share that eBook with all of the devices that use those PIDs. My wife and mother-in-law's readers are authorized to my account at Sony. And when if I purchase an eBook there, their readers are also allowed to display them. So I see no problem letting them have the eBook if they want to read it. So as long as the DRM and I know the other person reading it won't stript he DRM and give it away, I see no problem lending it. The only difference is this person can keep a copy and read it whenever as long as he/she has the device the eBook is authorized for.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

However, copyright law does not prevent selling, sharing or giving away anything. It prevents *copies*. And derivatives, which are quasi-copies.

Most "sharing" of ebooks involves copies. So would most "sales." However, if you purchased ebooks, burned them to a disc (or downloaded them to a flash drive in the first place), and removed any copies from your hard drive, you should be legally able to sell, share, or whatever that disc. (At least, legally as far as copyright law is concerned. Amazon or Fictionwise's EULA is a different matter, and according to the new Myspace ruling you may be in violation of criminal law if you circumvent one of those.)

The problem with selling an eBook is that yes, I can take some eBooks I own, put them on CD, sell them, and not have a single copy on my computer. But guess what? I can log back onto say Fictionwise or BooksOnBoard and download them all over again. Nothing to stop me from doing that.

[pshrynk]

As you can see, there is a lot of gray area.

[ficbot]

I've thought about this a lot, and I think at some point, fair use is going to have to come into it. Fair use is most often described as what a 'reasonable' person would consider fair. So, consider these examples:

1) I am at my sister's house and pick up a paperback book off her coffee table. I look at it. Then we go outside together, and she says 'bring it with you if you want' and I do. So far, so good, right?

2) I am at my sister's house and while we are chatting, I am tooling around on her computer and happen upon an ebook, which I start reading. Still good, right?

3) Then we want to go outside. 'Let me put that on my Palm for you' she says. And she puts it on her palm and we take it outside. Still okay, right? Her ebook, her palm device...

4) 'Oops, I can't find my Palm. Have you got one? Great.' And she loads it onto MY Palm device, and outside to the garden we go. Same net effect, but suddenly we are in a grey area...

I personally think that in scenario 4, as long as I don't *keep* the file after I'm finished reading it, it should be permitted because it would be the same as loaning a paper book. But who knows, this might not be allowed I think it's silly. One time, my sister did loan me an ebook (and yes, I consider it a loan as it went straight into my device, and I deleted it when I was done) and this ebook included sample chapters of the author's other works, and I wound up buying one