Change to K4PC/Mac Encryption - Why?

darryl · 03-14-2016, 10:48 PM

The problem with K4PC has been solved for the PC and no doubt will be solved soon for Mac. Thanks to Apprentice Harper and all who helped.

Perhaps I am too paranoid, but I am wondering why Amazon bothered with this. It was always going to be overcome quickly. Although it is beyond my own programming skills the same is not true of the many talented hackers who take an interest. It is difficult to believe that Amazon did not know this also, which leads to the question of why they bothered. Is it just a test of the community's response? If so, is this in preparation for some future more sinister actions? Or just information gathering.

I like Amazon, and buy most of my books from them. With Adobe's new DRM and the attempts by some to popularise reading only on their own apps, I had thought Amazon at least would stick with the status quo on DRM, perhaps picking up customers as its competitors locked down their ecosystems. But since then we have seen .kfx, which encrypts even drm-free ebooks, and now this change of key. Amazon is clearly taking a good look at this whole area. The sky is not falling yet, but the worst case scenario is being once again locked-in to one ecosystem or the other.

Any ideas? What was the purpose of Amazon's experiment in changing encryption? What is their current thinking on DRM and lock-in?

eschwartz · 03-15-2016, 12:31 AM

Have you looked at the actual changes to the DeDRM tools?

tl;dr
It doesn't really look like Amazon was trying to break the tools. It looks like this was a very minor change actually. Sometimes applications reshuffle or tack on new fields to their settings.

They might not have actually realized the tools would be affected, assuming they knew or cared about the tools anyway.

darryl · 03-15-2016, 02:33 AM

@eschwartz. I was curious enough to have a look at the changes. I don't pretend to understand them in detail, but I can follow roughly what is happening. I agree that the changes involved in Kindle4PC are minor. It's just that I can't see why they were made. Of course, there could be a good reason, though I can't think of one. Amazpn is not actually sharing with us! Certainly, if Amazon did deliberately break the tools it would seem to be the first time overt hostility to them has been shown. I do hope that the change was made for some other reason and broke the tools inadvertently.

I can't conceive that Amazon does not know about the tools. I can conceive that they are indifferent to them. I can also conceive, though it is less likely, that they actually welcome them.

eschwartz · 03-15-2016, 02:57 AM

Yes, I was making fun of the idea that it was malice aforethought by implying that Amazon isn't aware of DeDRM tools.

You can read that as "they weren't actually paying attention to the Tools, to the extent that their knowledge or caring might affect the matter".

In order to claim hostility, I would have to see some serious changes. Changes that look deliberate, and require significant functional modifications to the Tools to compensate. Maybe even going so far as to rewrite the K4PC key derivation code entirely.

We've all heard of the epic struggle with Apple.

DiapDealer · 03-15-2016, 09:42 PM

I don't think it was a deliberate swipe at "the tools" either. Stuff happens.

We've had a nice long uninterrupted run, but this sort of change isn't exactly unprecedented (and it was only new installations anyway). The switch from a per device PID to a per book PID had everyone up in arms about how to decrypt books from Kindle Keyboards for a good long while. It was only after that change that the K4PC solution was arrived at (K4Mac resisted for quite a while longer). For a while there, the K4PC method was the only option available to those with KKs. This is a hiccup by comparison.

To be honest, I'm a little surprised the tools' effectiveness hasn't been broken a lot more often along the way--by sheer accident.

darryl · 03-15-2016, 11:03 PM

Thanks to you both. It seems, then, that there is very likely no meaningful "why" as used in the heading to this thread. Simply a minor change by Amazon for reasons not clear to us but quite common in the life of a software product. Which had the inadvertent and unintended effect of breaking the tools.

Please forgive my touch of paranoia on this topic.

03-14-2016, 10:48 PM	#1
darryl Wizard Posts: 3,108 Karma: 60231510 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Aura H2O, Kindle Oasis, Huwei Ascend Mate 7	Change to K4PC/Mac Encryption - Why? The problem with K4PC has been solved for the PC and no doubt will be solved soon for Mac. Thanks to Apprentice Harper and all who helped. Perhaps I am too paranoid, but I am wondering why Amazon bothered with this. It was always going to be overcome quickly. Although it is beyond my own programming skills the same is not true of the many talented hackers who take an interest. It is difficult to believe that Amazon did not know this also, which leads to the question of why they bothered. Is it just a test of the community's response? If so, is this in preparation for some future more sinister actions? Or just information gathering. I like Amazon, and buy most of my books from them. With Adobe's new DRM and the attempts by some to popularise reading only on their own apps, I had thought Amazon at least would stick with the status quo on DRM, perhaps picking up customers as its competitors locked down their ecosystems. But since then we have seen .kfx, which encrypts even drm-free ebooks, and now this change of key. Amazon is clearly taking a good look at this whole area. The sky is not falling yet, but the worst case scenario is being once again locked-in to one ecosystem or the other. Any ideas? What was the purpose of Amazon's experiment in changing encryption? What is their current thinking on DRM and lock-in?

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03-15-2016, 12:31 AM	#2
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,422 Karma: 85397180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	Have you looked at the actual changes to the DeDRM tools? tl;dr It doesn't really look like Amazon was trying to break the tools. It looks like this was a very minor change actually. Sometimes applications reshuffle or tack on new fields to their settings. They might not have actually realized the tools would be affected, assuming they knew or cared about the tools anyway.

03-15-2016, 02:33 AM	#3
darryl Wizard Posts: 3,108 Karma: 60231510 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Aura H2O, Kindle Oasis, Huwei Ascend Mate 7	@eschwartz. I was curious enough to have a look at the changes. I don't pretend to understand them in detail, but I can follow roughly what is happening. I agree that the changes involved in Kindle4PC are minor. It's just that I can't see why they were made. Of course, there could be a good reason, though I can't think of one. Amazpn is not actually sharing with us! Certainly, if Amazon did deliberately break the tools it would seem to be the first time overt hostility to them has been shown. I do hope that the change was made for some other reason and broke the tools inadvertently. I can't conceive that Amazon does not know about the tools. I can conceive that they are indifferent to them. I can also conceive, though it is less likely, that they actually welcome them.

03-15-2016, 02:57 AM	#4
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,422 Karma: 85397180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	Yes, I was making fun of the idea that it was malice aforethought by implying that Amazon isn't aware of DeDRM tools. You can read that as "they weren't actually paying attention to the Tools, to the extent that their knowledge or caring might affect the matter". In order to claim hostility, I would have to see some serious changes. Changes that look deliberate, and require significant functional modifications to the Tools to compensate. Maybe even going so far as to rewrite the K4PC key derivation code entirely. We've all heard of the epic struggle with Apple.

03-15-2016, 09:42 PM	#5
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 27,549 Karma: 193191846 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I don't think it was a deliberate swipe at "the tools" either. Stuff happens. We've had a nice long uninterrupted run, but this sort of change isn't exactly unprecedented (and it was only new installations anyway). The switch from a per device PID to a per book PID had everyone up in arms about how to decrypt books from Kindle Keyboards for a good long while. It was only after that change that the K4PC solution was arrived at (K4Mac resisted for quite a while longer). For a while there, the K4PC method was the only option available to those with KKs. This is a hiccup by comparison. To be honest, I'm a little surprised the tools' effectiveness hasn't been broken a lot more often along the way--by sheer accident.

03-15-2016, 11:03 PM	#6
darryl Wizard Posts: 3,108 Karma: 60231510 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Aura H2O, Kindle Oasis, Huwei Ascend Mate 7	Thanks to you both. It seems, then, that there is very likely no meaningful "why" as used in the heading to this thread. Simply a minor change by Amazon for reasons not clear to us but quite common in the life of a software product. Which had the inadvertent and unintended effect of breaking the tools. Please forgive my touch of paranoia on this topic.