can there be a market for used digital content?

[Lemurion]

Rant on:

IP law has struck everywhere, and often to peoples' detriment. American manufacturers refused to license the vastly superior Robertson head for screws, leaving entire generations to struggle with the almost-useless Philips head.

Rant Off/

Digital media, are fundamentally different from physical media because the normal method of usage usually involves the creation of multiple copies; something which is impossible with physical media.

Implicit in the idea of resale is the idea that one gives up the item one is reselling as part of the transaction. This doesn't need to be enforced with physical media, it's intrinsic to their nature. It's true even if you burn a copy of a CD and then sell the original. You may still have access to the music, but you no longer have the original (and presumably its packaging and any extra material that came with it).

Digital just doesn't work the same way, and I don't see how we can enforce any right of resale for something that is not associated with physical media or anything else that cannot be duplicated.

Something has to be found that can compensate producers without treating consumers like thieves. We just haven't found the balance yet.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Something has to be found that can compensate producers without treating consumers like thieves. We just haven't found the balance yet.

Security, by its popular definition, already "treats consumers like thieves" just by preventing them from stealing. We dance around locked doors, security cameras, hidden sensor chips and store guards every day, but somehow we don't break into a Banner-esque rage because their mere presence makes us feel like thieves. We get over it, ignore it, and buy our products.

I submit that worrying about treating consumers like thieves isn't the issue... making sure producers can continue to produce, so that consumers have something they want to buy, is the issue. If consumers can get what they want within reason, they'll stop worrying about the security altogether. So the secret is providing a product that the consumer sees as reasonable.

As far as used digital content: It's just not reasonable, unless it's tied to a license to use or to a physical package, to limit its use to one owner at a time. I, for one, see a physical package to be a step backward in digital content delivery, so a license would make more sense to me.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by bwana

I am intrigued by Elfwreck's statement that there is plenty of DRM free media around. Unfortunately I am a creature of the physical world and the people around me use the tokens of the mass media as reference points- my kids talk about Rihanna, Britney Spears, Linkin Park. The talk about TV shows. They talk about the Red Sox. All of these media are DRM controlled. ...

My point is that DRM free media are often not the mainstream. I would love for you to prove me wrong and show me the some of the many sources of DRM free media that your children enjoy.

My kids watch TV, play video games--and head over to fanfiction.net to read stories about the TV shows & video games. (There is, apparently, quite a bit of Sonic the Hedgehog fanfic. And Pokemon fanfic. I try not to think about it.)

Doctorow's Little Brother is an award-winning Young Adult novel available as a free download in multiple formats. And he's got another one coming out soon.

Plenty of children's & YA classics are public domain & freely available. Fantasy stories, adventure stories, biographies, histories--the only area that's a bit weak is science & tech, because we've made a lot of changes in our understanding of science in the last eighty years. But there's plenty of opensource/creative commons scientific content available, at least for a parent who is able to spend some time finding stuff on topics their kids are interested in. If nothing else, there are blogs & rss feeds on all sorts of technical topics, ranging from basic overview to intensely detailed.

There's a new Alice in Wonderland movie--and hey, the original book is freely available. My older daughter watches Stephen Colbert, so I'm planning on getting her some Mark Twain. I'll put Little Fuzzy on whatever ebook readers they wind up with. (I have a Rocketbook I'm having trouble getting to work properly with Vista, and I'm waiting for that elusive <$100 multi-format-reading non-eink device.)

The only barrier is getting them interested in reading instead of watching moving pictures. There is *endless* written material available, especially for a child who's still sorting out his or her interests.

There's plenty of free content; paid, non-DRM content is more limited only because it requires parental filtering. (I wouldn't exactly mind setting my kids loose at Smashwords, but I know they wouldn't be able to find stuff they liked.)

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Security, by its popular definition, already "treats consumers like thieves" just by preventing them from stealing.

Really? See those self-checkouts? Where did they come from, and why have they raised supermarket's profits? You made quite a sweeping statement, Steve...

And the same happens online with Baen and so on. The moment you lower the barriers, revenue goes up.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

My kids watch TV, play video games--and head over to fanfiction.net to read stories about the TV shows & video games. (There is, apparently, quite a bit of Sonic the Hedgehog fanfic. And Pokemon fanfic. I try not to think about it.)

Allowing your kids to read Sonic/Pikachu slash fiction?

[garbanzo]

it's a lot easier to copy a digital file before returning it for cash than it is to reproduce a toaster. this simply is not feasible. it's why software stores only accept goods that are unopened.

moreover, the practice certainly wouldn't 'stunt' piracy. in fact, one could argue that this would increase the flow of rogue data onto the internet, since it would cost the original uploads a fraction of the retail value of an item to acquire it for long enough to create a copy.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Allowing your kids to read Sonic/Pikachu slash fiction?

Fortunately, neither kid is interested in slash or romance fic. Yet. They both grumble about the difficulty of finding adventure-story fic rather than 'ship fic.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

You suggested an example of that, giving up the right to resell ebooks because it is inconvenient for companies to track who has the rights to which books.

Again, if you could kindly link or quote where I stated anyone give the right to resell ebooks because it was inconvenient for companies to track who has the rights to which books.

Can't find the quote? That's because I never stated that.

What I did state was simply that I think people will need to give up the right to resell digital books because it just wont work. Digital media is different to physical media and what will work for one may not work for the other.

Just as many here have made the analogy that many buggy whip makers went out of business when the motor car was invented. Would you say those buggy whip makers were forced to give up their right to make a living from making buggy whips because it was inconvenient to the car makers? Of course not. It simply wasn't workable for many people to make a living making buggy whips anymore. Times changed then just as they are changing now. Deal with it as you are so fond of suggesting the publishers will have to do.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Sarcastic, yes. But argumentative? Nope, you're simply projecting - hint for the Americans: Sarcasm | Attack.

I stated your response was argumentative and rhetorical to which you replied "that's the great thing about sarcasm".

Certainly seems to me you were agreeing your posts were argumentative. If not, please clarify what you meant about the great thing about sarcasm being it is rhetorical and argumentative.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

You go on in the same vein, refusing to acknowledge the wider implications of the policies you're advocating. It's not an unreasonable extrapolation, bluntly, given the actions of media companies over the years.

Advocate: to speak or write in favor of; support or urge by argument.

I am not advocating any policies. I am merely sharing my view on a particular topic. I never stated whether I supported the end result I see coming or whether I thought it was bad thing. I merely stated I believed people will need to give up the idea they can sell their digital files on some sort of second hand market.

As for acknowledging any "wider implications", you have not actually put forward any. You have merely attempted to suggest I was claiming something I am not.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And why should people "have to accept" anything which disallows them from using their rights,

Times change, deal with it.

You keep advocating that publishers need to change, well I hate to be the one to break the bad news to you but so will consumers.

You so often suggest the music industry as an analogy for where the book industry will need to go, well how much of a market is there for second hand digital music files? Was anyone "forced to give up their rights" or did the market place simply change?

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

is not substantially cheaper and is usually actually of poorer quality. This is no more and no less a call for failure on the part of the ebook industry, as happened a decade ago. Why does that need to occur again, precisely? (Renting me an ebook will only get me to pay rental prices...)

My very first post, which you obviously didn't read very well, stated that I believe the solution to be making digital books available at a price that people no longer care if they can re-sell it or not. And even though I did not state specifically in my first post(my bad), I have stated, to you specifically and to others on this board, many many times in the past that I also believe DRM and geo-restrictions need to go and that quality needs to improve.

So how exactly am I advocating people should have to put up with something that is "not substantially cheaper and is usually actually of poorer quality"?

Or were you just trying to be argumentative again by suggesting that is what I am advocating?

Cheers,
PKFFW

[wodin]

Why would anyone want to sell a used ebook? I have hundreds and hundreds of them, and they’re all mine! MINE, I tell you, and you can’t have ANY of them!

[ficbot]

I think that if what they are selling is a rental, they need to charge rental prices. Some ebook prices I have seen are outrageous when compared to the sometimes cheaper print versions. So when you have a print version that is cheaper AND you can resell it and have other rights, people are justified in feeling offended at paying more than the ownership cost for something that is really a rental.

[DawnFalcon]

[QUOTE=PKFFW;850010]Again, if you could kindly link or quote where I stated anyone give the right to resell ebooks because it was inconvenient for companies to track who has the rights to which books.[quote]

Can't find the quote? That's because I never stated that.

No, and it's not what I said either. You stated that people shouldn't have the right, of course, purely and simply because it's hard on the companies. Well, shit, there are lots of laws and consumer rights which are hard on companies - you can't ignore the general case without a far better argument than that.

Certainly seems to me you were agreeing your posts were argumentative.

This is a lie.

I am not advocating any policies. I am merely sharing my view on a particular topic.

That is not what you have typed. You are advocating stripping people's rights simply because of the medium.

You keep advocating that publishers need to change, well I hate to be the one to break the bad news to you but so will consumers.

UK/EU Consumer law works fine. You want to break it because it's inconvenient for companies. Understandably, there are people less than keen on that.

You so often suggest the music industry as an analogy for where the book industry will need to go

This is a lie. I advocate Baen as where the book industry can pick up a lot of tips, and music retailers as where they can get a few.

Say, what's your RIAA membership number?

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

No, and it's not what I said either. You stated that people shouldn't have the right, of course, purely and simply because it's hard on the companies. Well, shit, there are lots of laws and consumer rights which are hard on companies - you can't ignore the general case without a far better argument than that.



This is a lie.



That is not what you have typed. You are advocating stripping people's rights simply because of the medium.



UK/EU Consumer law works fine. You want to break it because it's inconvenient for companies. Understandably, there are people less than keen on that.



This is a lie. I advocate Baen as where the book industry can pick up a lot of tips, and music retailers as where they can get a few.

Say, what's your RIAA membership number?

I see now you are a complete and utter tool who just likes to be argumentative. I can only assume it is because you have no life.

On Ignore now and Goodbye.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[DawnFalcon]

So basically you're admitting you have no answer whatsoever? Great, now I'm going to call you - and treat you as - a corporate shill, because you've been utterly unable to answer me in any respect except by making stuff up.

Oh, and, er... cry more.

[PKFFW]

Ok, since I haven't figured out how to add you to ignore yet(where is the damn ignore button?) let me answer one more time..........

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

No, and it's not what I said either. You stated that people shouldn't have the right, of course, purely and simply because it's hard on the companies.

So I make things up hey?

Please quote where I posted that people shouldn't have the right?

You can't can you? That's because I have never stated that. That is simply a lie you made up because it was easy and convenient for you.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

This is a lie.

Do you know what a lie is?

1: I stated that what you posted seems to me to be agreement. As I am stating what it seems to me, it is not a lie. At very worst I may have misinterpreted your remark but I don't think so.
2: You were the one that stated "that's the great thing about sarcasm". So if you believe it is great that sarcasm is rhetorical and argumentative doesn't it follow that you are agreeing that your sarcastic comments are argumentative and rhetorical?

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

That is not what you have typed. You are advocating stripping people's rights simply because of the medium.

Firstly, please link or quote where I stated anyone should be "stripped" of their rights. Can't do it? Of course not, because your claim that I did is simply another lie.

Secondly, I gave you the definition of advocating. Advocating means one is speaking in support of something.

Simply stating that one believes situation X will follow from situation Y without stating either way if that chain of events is good or bad does not constitute "advocating".

There are some good English schools in the UK. You should look into attending some classes in order to get a better understanding of the language rather than using big words you don't understand.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

UK/EU Consumer law works fine. You want to break it because it's inconvenient for companies. Understandably, there are people less than keen on that.

Whoop de doo da dee...........

Your response here in no way addresses my point but that doesn't surprise me as that is your usual way of arguing when you don't really have any valid point.

If you truly believe consumers will not have to change at all in the digital age then good for you. I suggest you get on your big fluffy pink elephant and bound off to have tea with the fairies as that is where you so obviously belong.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

This is a lie. I advocate Baen as where the book industry can pick up a lot of tips, and music retailers as where they can get a few.

It is not a lie, you have used the music industry as an analogy before.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Say, what's your RIAA membership number?

And what a surprise, you don't really have any valid discussion points in response to my points so you bring out the old RIAA membership number line.

Will Godwins law be invoked next?

Now off to work out how to add lunatics to the ignore list!

Cheers,
PKFFW

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

Now off to work out how to add lunatics to the ignore list!

Cheers,
PKFFW

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/pro...?do=ignorelist

BOb