Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book Formats > ePub

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-08-2013, 09:50 AM   #1
nuno.pinto
Junior Member
nuno.pinto began at the beginning.
 
Posts: 2
Karma: 10
Join Date: Feb 2013
Device: none
ePub limitations, good practices and safe bets.

Hello everyone,

I work for a publisher of educational content, press and multimedia.

We were considering moving some of our press content to ePub, and with that end in mind, we've searched for software to convert/adapt our contents and external companies to do that for us.

We've experimented with Sigil and it seems to be a great piece of software for creating eBooks. We've also studied the ePub format, and made some experiments, to find its limitations, allways using the less advanced hardware/software. What I found was that we can't really rely on css and ANIMATED gifs due to most readers only meeting the minimum ePub requirements. There's no problem in that, we'll just have to work around those issues.

BUT, some of the companies we contacted promissed to publish the ePubs with some interactive elements (exercises, animations, etc). I know ePub 3 supports Javascript, but not all readers. How can a company promisse such feats? Is there something I'm not considering.

Thanks for any reply,
Regards,
NP

Last edited by nuno.pinto; 02-08-2013 at 10:03 AM.
nuno.pinto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 10:17 AM   #2
Jellby
frumious Bandersnatch
Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Jellby's Avatar
 
Posts: 7,514
Karma: 18512745
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spaniard in Sweden
Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuno.pinto View Post
BUT, some of the companies we contacted promissed to publish the ePubs with some interactive elements (exercises, animations, etc). I know ePub 3 supports Javascript, but not all readers. How can a company promisse such feats? Is there something I'm not considering.
Simple. They'll just create an ebook that works on some readers (single one) and probably not even care about standards compliance.
Jellby is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 02-08-2013, 10:22 AM   #3
nuno.pinto
Junior Member
nuno.pinto began at the beginning.
 
Posts: 2
Karma: 10
Join Date: Feb 2013
Device: none
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
Simple. They'll just create an ebook that works on some readers (single one) and probably not even care about standards compliance.
So, they're basically trying to rip-off with promises that might don't work.

Also, is that common practice?

The solution I'm thinking of proposing is:
- Make our eBooks ePub2 compatible, no interactivity, basically digital School Books;
- Take some exercises and make an app that chooses a random question from a repository of questions, multiple choice.


One would be a school Manual, while the other would be an extra for test preparation.

Last edited by nuno.pinto; 02-08-2013 at 10:28 AM.
nuno.pinto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 01:22 PM   #4
Turtle91
A Hairy Wizard
Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Turtle91's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,068
Karma: 18727053
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Charleston, SC today
Device: iPhone 11/X/6/iPad 1,2,Air & Air Pro/Surface Pro/Kindle PW & Fire
Well...I assume the ePub 3 will work...but only on devices/apps that support ePub3. The problem is that there are very few devices/apps that support it...right now. Developers ARE working on it, but we are definitely in the beginning stages of adoption. I wouldn't say they are trying to "rip you off" unless they are trying to tell you that it will work on "all devices".

It is possible to create an ePub 2+3, which is a hybrid that can be used on any device. Devices that do not support the advanced features of ePub3 (video, audio, etc) would only show the ePub2. Devices that do support ePub3 would display all of the advanced features.
[disclaimer] I have not created or worked with ePub 2-3, but you can see examples of them at the Azardi website.

Last edited by Turtle91; 02-08-2013 at 01:26 PM.
Turtle91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 01:42 PM   #5
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 73,645
Karma: 127838196
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle91 View Post
Well...I assume the ePub 3 will work...but only on devices/apps that support ePub3. The problem is that there are very few devices/apps that support it...right now. Developers ARE working on it, but we are definitely in the beginning stages of adoption. I wouldn't say they are trying to "rip you off" unless they are trying to tell you that it will work on "all devices".

It is possible to create an ePub 2+3, which is a hybrid that can be used on any device. Devices that do not support the advanced features of ePub3 (video, audio, etc) would only show the ePub2. Devices that do support ePub3 would display all of the advanced features.
[disclaimer] I have not created or worked with ePub 2-3, but you can see examples of them at the Azardi website.
A lot of the ePub 2 software would probably have issues with the ePub 3 parts of the code.

Most 99% of the ePub compatible reading software out there doesn't handle ePub 3. So to pay to have an ePub 3 made is a waste of money. It won't work on most eInk Readers and most iOS/Android apps won't handle it. Also, when it gets validated, it will fail. Stores won't sell it and customers won't buy it even if the stores sold it.

The best thing to do is train people who can do the conversion to ePub in-house and not worry about external companies who do a poor conversion. There's a thread on issues with eBooks.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=204925
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 02-08-2013, 02:58 PM   #6
Turtle91
A Hairy Wizard
Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Turtle91's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,068
Karma: 18727053
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Charleston, SC today
Device: iPhone 11/X/6/iPad 1,2,Air & Air Pro/Surface Pro/Kindle PW & Fire
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
A lot of the ePub 2 software would probably have issues with the ePub 3 parts of the code.

Most 99% of the ePub compatible reading software out there doesn't handle ePub 3. So to pay to have an ePub 3 made is a waste of money. It won't work on most eInk Readers and most iOS/Android apps won't handle it. Also, when it gets validated, it will fail. Stores won't sell it and customers won't buy it even if the stores sold it.
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=204925
Have you tested one of the ePub 2+3 books on your device?? I know you don't like the ePub 3 spec, but it would be interesting to know if it actually doesn't work (like Azardi says it does) or if you are just guessing.
Turtle91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 05:28 PM   #7
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 73,645
Karma: 127838196
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle91 View Post
Have you tested one of the ePub 2+3 books on your device?? I know you don't like the ePub 3 spec, but it would be interesting to know if it actually doesn't work (like Azardi says it does) or if you are just guessing.
Find me an ePub 2+3 eBook and I'll test it.
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2013, 12:26 AM   #8
Turtle91
A Hairy Wizard
Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Turtle91's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,068
Karma: 18727053
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Charleston, SC today
Device: iPhone 11/X/6/iPad 1,2,Air & Air Pro/Surface Pro/Kindle PW & Fire
Check the link I provided...several there.
Turtle91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 10:54 AM   #9
mzmm
Groupie
mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.
 
mzmm's Avatar
 
Posts: 171
Karma: 86271
Join Date: Feb 2012
Device: iPad, Kindle Touch, Sony PRS-T1
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuno.pinto View Post
... I know ePub 3 supports Javascript, but not all readers.
Javascript was actually supported (although its use was discouraged) in epub2, so it's really always been up to the device to be able to handle it properly.

what's epub 2+3? epub 3 with an ncx? on the few devices i've tested epub3s on that don't officially support them i've had no problems opening and reading them. Liz Castro wrote something up about this not long ago.

http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/20...y-arrived.html
mzmm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 12:55 AM   #10
johnpublish
Junior Member
johnpublish began at the beginning.
 
Posts: 1
Karma: 10
Join Date: Feb 2013
Device: iPad (4th gen)
Apple iBooks supports ePub 3, and I believe the Fire does also. Why wouldn't other companies jump on board? With all the multimedia support...it seems like a no brainer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
A lot of the ePub 2 software would probably have issues with the ePub 3 parts of the code.

Most 99% of the ePub compatible reading software out there doesn't handle ePub 3. So to pay to have an ePub 3 made is a waste of money. It won't work on most eInk Readers and most iOS/Android apps won't handle it. Also, when it gets validated, it will fail. Stores won't sell it and customers won't buy it even if the stores sold it.

The best thing to do is train people who can do the conversion to ePub in-house and not worry about external companies who do a poor conversion. There's a thread on issues with eBooks.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=204925
johnpublish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 03:06 AM   #11
Toxaris
Wizard
Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Toxaris's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,520
Karma: 121692313
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Heemskerk, NL
Device: PRS-T1, Kobo Touch, Kobo Aura
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzmm View Post
Javascript was actually supported (although its use was discouraged) in epub2, so it's really always been up to the device to be able to handle it properly.
Ehh, what? If you look at the specifications, it is stated that 'Reading Systems must not render the textual content of the script element, and should not execute the script itself.' (emphasis not mine).

So what you state is not correct. The fact that some readers (or rather reading applications) do support it, is because they used a web renderer like webkit instead of developing a ePUB renderer.
Toxaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 03:10 AM   #12
Toxaris
Wizard
Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Toxaris's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,520
Karma: 121692313
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Heemskerk, NL
Device: PRS-T1, Kobo Touch, Kobo Aura
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnpublish View Post
Apple iBooks supports ePub 3, and I believe the Fire does also. Why wouldn't other companies jump on board? With all the multimedia support...it seems like a no brainer.
Quite simple, almost all e-ink readers cannot handle multimedia because of the screen and other elements (battery). I am actually glad they don't. I want to read a book, not be bothered by audio/video. I do see some merits of multimedia with specific types of books (childrens/cooking/academic (perhaps), etc) but not for the majority. I would have much rather have them fix other issues with the format first, as good support for footnotes, just to mention one.
The 'solutions' in ePUB3 for footnotes that I have seen so far do not impress me. A pop-up balloon? No, thanks.

Also, iBooks do not really support ePUB3, but their variant of it. In order to get things to work you need iBooks/web-kit specific things which will most probably not work on other ePUB3 readers. The same goes for their fixed-layout format. Also iBooks specific.

Last edited by Toxaris; 02-13-2013 at 03:15 AM.
Toxaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 09:25 AM   #13
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 73,645
Karma: 127838196
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3
And the Kindle fire is not ePub 3 compliant. It's Amazon's variation which is not the same.
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 09:41 AM   #14
mzmm
Groupie
mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.mzmm has not lost his or her sense of wonder.
 
mzmm's Avatar
 
Posts: 171
Karma: 86271
Join Date: Feb 2012
Device: iPad, Kindle Touch, Sony PRS-T1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxaris View Post
Ehh, what? If you look at the specifications, it is stated that 'Reading Systems must not render the textual content of the script element, and should not execute the script itself.' (emphasis not mine).

So what you state is not correct. The fact that some readers (or rather reading applications) do support it, is because they used a web renderer like webkit instead of developing a ePUB renderer.
i've read in an entry by Liza Daly on the Threepress Blog and in the epub3 specs that scripting in epub2 was not prohibited because both mention that "EPUB 3 Reading Systems may optionally support scripting, which was explicitly discouraged in EPUB 2" (3.0 specs) and that "The script element is specifically discouraged (though not disallowed) in EPUB 2.0.1" (Liza Daly)

but yes, looking again at the 2.0.1 specs does seem to make it pretty explicit. not sure how the idpf went from "must not" to "explicitly discouraged", though.

Last edited by mzmm; 02-13-2013 at 12:56 PM.
mzmm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 04:01 PM   #15
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 73,645
Karma: 127838196
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3
Given that most (if not all) reading systems won't handle scripting, it's a waste of time and effort to put scripts in ePub 2 eBooks.
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Page Margin Best Practices epub->mobi BKh Conversion 0 08-09-2012 12:11 PM
Are there EPUB limitations on a Samsung E65? Artha ePub 2 08-06-2011 04:52 AM
TOC best practices (InDesign to ePUb) virtual_ink ePub 3 07-03-2011 01:50 PM
Good practices question jesjaspers Sony Reader 5 08-07-2009 02:08 PM
EPUB best practices guide Bob Russell ePub 25 04-01-2008 08:36 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:36 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.