05-24-2013, 10:27 PM | #16 |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 11,304
Karma: 43993832
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monroe Wisconsin
Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)
|
|
05-26-2013, 10:55 AM | #17 | |
Autism Spectrum Disorder
Posts: 1,212
Karma: 6244877
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Coastal Texas
Device: Android Phone
|
Quote:
Other possibilities I remember include Loki as a fire god and Thor's drinking buddy (Mead Horn of the Giants), part of a seasonal cycle (Death of Baldur) akin to the modern Oak King- Holly King cycle, and possibly a punisher of those who show off too their divine- given blessings too much (also Death of Baldur). |
|
05-27-2013, 10:20 AM | #18 |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 5,185
Karma: 25133758
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)
|
The fanfic communities have been all over this; there've been roundups of fannish and pro reactions.
My own thoughts: it's a bad deal for authors, like many publishers' "outreach" programs to allow unsolicited manuscripts from the web. It's got low royalties compared to other ebook programs, and allows Amazon & the media company too many rights. It's not "licensed fanfic;" it's "essentially invite unsolicited manuscripts for tie-in novels" (not my quote.) The terms are more invasive than most tie-in novel terms, but not substantially so. Unlike total works-for-hire, the author here retains some rights. (It's unclear what those are, since it's an "exclusive" contract; I suppose they can write more with their original characters, not in the tie-in world, and publish it as kindlebooks?) A comment at The Passive Voice points out that the stories will go through an editor of sorts; they're not accepting any-and-all stories. There may be a list of rough plot outlines they're looking for, and otherwise, there'll probably be a strict list of thou-shalt-nots: only canon pairings, or no converting the villain to good nor the hero to evil, or no "coffeeshop AU," and so on. They're looking to catch the next E.L. James before she can make it big without giving them a cut; they're not looking to actually publish fanfic. Also: the three worlds they're starting with are all corporate-owned; the books are works-for-hire. There is no author to get involved with the approval process. It's possible Kindle Worlds will never have options to write in a single-person-owned world, but be focused on TV properties that may or may not already have tie-in novels. |
05-27-2013, 10:44 AM | #19 |
Guru
Posts: 895
Karma: 4383958
Join Date: Nov 2007
Device: na
|
Elfwreck: The T&C were the thing that stuck out for me too. My initial reaction was it's a good thing, then I read the T&C and thought whilst it's still a good thing, there's no way if I were an author I'd accept those T&C.
Perhaps down the line it'll open up to less editorial control whilst still retaining the right to remove certain stories they think cross whatever line. However, even with that the T&C would still put me off. |
05-27-2013, 11:25 AM | #20 |
Award-Winning Participant
Posts: 7,316
Karma: 67862884
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
|
So if I'm understanding Elfwreck correctly, it's less a program for publishing fanfic, and more another avenue to discover pro authors. They are just trying to attract fanfic writers to the program? Sort of like Microsoft putting up "engineers wanted" signs at a computer club meeting?
|
05-27-2013, 03:14 PM | #21 | |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 5,185
Karma: 25133758
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)
|
It's not even "want to attract fanfic writers" as "hey, some writers of that 'fanfic' stuff have been making money; I bet WE could be making some of that money!" And as my friend flourish said:
Quote:
The point is... fanfic is huge and diverse, and most publishing execs are oblivious to its true scope. They believe that fanfic authors are writing unofficial sequels and the occasional self-insert story, and would all *jump* at the chance to have their name on a book with the official series logo on it--and that because of that interest, they can offer lousy publishing terms and still get plenty of good authors. There are some who will go along with it. But it won't make any real impact on the fanfic communities; the vast majority will recognize it as a media ploy and not any kind of recognition of the value and unique literary aspects of fanfiction. |
|
05-27-2013, 03:44 PM | #22 | |
Award-Winning Participant
Posts: 7,316
Karma: 67862884
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
|
Quote:
Rather than suing for copyright infringement, which seem like it would be a perfectly legitimate course of action, they are recognizing changes and embracing new opportunities. |
|
05-27-2013, 04:30 PM | #23 | ||
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 5,185
Karma: 25133758
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)
|
Quote:
And not all of that may be infringement. "The Wind Done Gone" was ruled not infringing; "Coming Through the Rye: 60 Years Later" was ruled infringing. There's no hard and fast rule about what use of someone else's literary world without permission is infringing. I tend to believe most fanfic is transformative enough to be non-infringing, even if it were sold. (Which, as I mentioned, it's generally not.) Quote:
While "license, don't sue" seems like a reasonable approach, it hinges on the concept that most uses would be licenseable; I don't expect this one to allow licenses for the majority of types of fanfic written, even within these few worlds. |
||
05-28-2013, 06:25 AM | #24 | |
Autism Spectrum Disorder
Posts: 1,212
Karma: 6244877
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Coastal Texas
Device: Android Phone
|
Quote:
Although, I would make a case that the fanfic movement and its sacred cows are analogous to taking a Rembrandt (or even a Bob Ross, for those of us who watch PBS) and sticking a homemade decal of a character onto it. Their movement is intentionally stifling their creativity. Not to mention the Big Lie of Fanworks- that you *have* to make a name for yourself doing years or even decades of fanworks before you can strike out on your own and create your own worlds. That alone has probably trapped some really good artists. So yeah, not really a fan of the Fanworks movement. Seems to combine the arrogance of Modernism with the strictures of Egyptian tomb paintings. |
|
05-28-2013, 01:04 PM | #25 |
Tech Writer
Posts: 211
Karma: 1745785
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Device: Palm TX, Nook Color, Nook Simple Touch, Vizio Tablet, Nexus 10
|
This discussion of fan art vs professional art makes me think of the Japanese manga (comic book) market.
They have an extensive gray market in fan-made manga called doujinshi, which are sold at huge comics festivals. Nearly all of which feature characters from mainstream manga and anime. The copyright laws in Japan allow the companies who own the characters to overlook all this without losing the rights to their characters. Manga artists often get their start in doujinshi clubs and then go pro. There are also pros who do doujinshi as side projects. One difference is that Amazon is barring pornography from the get-go, whereas doujinshi are frequently pornographic. (I have never gotten a straight answer from anyone who's been to Japan on what percentage of doujinshi are pornos, the gist of it is "more than a little, but not all.") |
05-28-2013, 03:07 PM | #26 | |
Interested Bystander
Posts: 3,725
Karma: 19728152
Join Date: Jun 2008
Device: Note 4, Kobo One
|
Quote:
If you are reusing someone else's setting and characters, I don't think it is reasonable to get as much of the money as if you had created everything yourself. |
|
05-29-2013, 09:53 AM | #27 |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 5,185
Karma: 25133758
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)
|
It's not less work to write in a world with existing characters than to make up new ones. There's a potential argument that it's harder--you have to match preconceived notions of how the characters will act--but I think that balances out with having existing traits to draw on. A believable "what happens next" story takes just as much creativity and literary skill as a "here's what happened to people you've never heard of" story.
Publishers don't have a habit of paying authors less if they're working with public domain texts as a base. Arthur Laurents didn't have to pay royalties to any Shakespeare Foundation for "West Side Story." All Creative Work Is Derivative... we're all working with ideas created and developed by other people. It's not inherently less creative to use someone else's names or places than to use someone else's tropes, themes, and plotline--and those are free to borrow. I'm not saying we should abolish copyright, or that all derivatives should be legal without permission, but that they're not innately less artistic than work where the source material is more blurry. The hundreds of fantasy authors who retold "Lord of the Rings" with different names and slight personality twists didn't get paid lower royalties than those who wrote other stories. |
05-29-2013, 10:14 AM | #28 | |
Interested Bystander
Posts: 3,725
Karma: 19728152
Join Date: Jun 2008
Device: Note 4, Kobo One
|
Quote:
Creating a fully-populated, internally consistent, world is difficult. Do people writing Star Trek/Buffy/... novels get the same payment split as authors writing original works? I doubt it. |
|
05-29-2013, 10:15 AM | #29 | |
Award-Winning Participant
Posts: 7,316
Karma: 67862884
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
|
Quote:
Good writing is good writing and it may be hard no matter what, but starting with a successful, popular idea does nothing but make it easier. Like in TV, comparatively lots of writers write or contribute to episodes of successful series, but far fewer create a successful, popular show that goes on to employee those episode writers, and generate fan fic. Now, show me a fanfic writer who was was perhaps the ONLY fan of an obscure forgotten property, and who's fanfic work MADE it into something popular, and I'll agree that person did the harder work. But as I said, that's all an aside. Copyright exists to give the creator control for a period of time. It's supposed to be a reasonably limited time, to encourage the production of work that will LATER be available to everyone, for all kinds of uses, but for the limited period of copyright, it's up to the owner as to how it's used. There's no reason for or defense of publishing fanfic from that point of view. And I think it's a good point of view, if only we can get that "reasonable time" thing back into existence. Until then, various progressive and novel licensing terms are the way to, not undermining copyright protection altogether. ApK |
|
05-29-2013, 10:39 AM | #30 | |||
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 5,185
Karma: 25133758
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)
|
Quote:
Quote:
However, there are cases of licensing of obscure works that allowed the fanworks to drag the original out of obscurity; the Cthulhu mythos is a great example. It was a little-known group of horror stories before Chaosium bought the rights to make an RPG out of it. Quote:
The question of whether *these* terms are too onerous for most authors is a separate debate; I suspect enough people will sign up for them, at least initially, that someone will declare the program a success. There's the solid possibility that some of the terms are unenforceable in Europe, where moral rights cannot be given up by contract. Kindle Worlds may get around this by just flat-out not accepting works from non-US authors. |
|||
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Free: A Place Called Armageddon by C.C. Humphreys [Hist Fic] Amazon | scottken | Deals and Resources (No Self-Promotion or Affiliate Links) | 1 | 01-18-2013 09:58 AM |
Fan Fic downloads | The Cod Father | Calibre | 2 | 11-24-2012 04:51 PM |
We Are the Hanged Man by Douglas Lindsay $.99 [Crime fic] (Amazon) [US] | NightBird | Deals and Resources (No Self-Promotion or Affiliate Links) | 0 | 08-20-2012 03:40 AM |