Interesting article about different politeness codes in Germany and USA/GB/Canada

IceHand · 04-30-2008, 05:40 PM

I've recently read an article about different politeness codes in Germany and USA/GB/Canada and I was not aware of this before – how about you?
When reading the article, notice that it's written by an American living in Germany and he's addressing a German audience. Feel free to point out mistakes I made in my translation. Original article in German, here is a rough translation (abridged version):

Why Americans (Britons, Canadians) don't say what they mean
Translated with kind permission of the author

Hey, how are you? asks the American and is surprised, when the German tells him his ferret has just been run over. Just come on over sometime! says the Briton and is shocked, when the German really stands before his door eventually.

Anglo-Saxons don't always mean what they say, Germans in contrast mostly do. When both cultures come together, more problems arise than just the handshake (translators note: reference to another article on the same blog).

That is because Americans, Britons, Canadians and other people from this culture group talk enciphered in certain situations – this is due to politeness. For example it's rude to say "no" directly and thus something will be said that every other Anglo-Saxon will understand as "no", but does not mean "no". [Dear female readers: some problems with the word "no" are caused by gender more than culture though, sorry.]

When questioned by her best friend if a dress looks good on her, a German woman might grimace and say "Hm, not really" or "I don't know, if it looks that good on you". An American woman though would more likely say something like "Wouldn't blue go better with your eyes?". For an American that means you look like an anorexic heroin addict, while a German has the feeling you're talking at cross-purposes. Eyes? Why is she talking about my eyes? I want to know if my ass looks fat!

Other examples: In a discussion with Americans "I wonder if this is really the best solution" means "no". "I’m wondering if we might need more time" means "no" and "We might want to review some parts of the project" means "no". Americans are bewildered (or just angry), when a German considers such sentences shortly and then says, no, it's fine how it is – and then just carries on. From the American's point of view the sentences were very clear in their meaning.

This is the case in everyday life as well. A polite Canadian will not say that he dislikes a present, because that would be rude and might hurt other peoples feelings. And that is – to come to the essential point of the article – in case of doubt more important than the absolute truth. That's why one would say it – if at all – enciphered and because the other person knows the code, he understands it and everything stays polite. Not without cause the terms white lie and polite lie exist in the English language: it's a socially required falsehood.

The question arises how Britons & Co. react when they really like a present. In short, they freak the hell out. I always wanted that, honey, look here what she brought me, already as a child no before I was born I wanted exactly that, wait till I show the neighbors, thank you very, very, very much, I'll never forget this day and my grandchildren will still talk about it, it will be chiselled on my gravestone!
When a German is uncomfortable with the situation and beginning to think he's being teased, it's exactly how it should be.

However exhausting happy Anglo-Saxons might be for Germans: the other way around the problem is more grave. An American who gives a German a present is virtually always disappointed, because Germans never freak out in such a situation. In the code book of an Anglo-Saxon the normal German "thank you" means that he doesn't like the present. This author had to console quite a few fellow countrymen over the years, who would come back from a date frustrated with the complain: "She didn't like my present! What did I do wrong? I don't understand!"
No, she loved it, but she's a German. That's just how they are. Marry her anyway.

Now comes the part some of you might not like: the described principles are especially true when visiting another country, in our specific situation Americans in Germany. Parents will impress this upon their children: If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything. And thus they keep their mouths shut while they are visiting or are here because of an exchange programme: criticising the host is considered very disrespectful.
That's why it's almost impossible to find out how an American or Briton liked Germany. When they are well brought up they'll always say that it was great. Fantastic. Totally amazing. Anything else would be just a little less impolite than cleaning ones nose with the tablecloth.
For Germans that is frustrating. When someone stays in a country for a while they assume that there are some things one wouldn't like – of course. It's considered "honest" to talk about that and a differentiated opinion is a sign of a cultivated, critical mind. Who finds everything great, amazing, fantastic is considered dumb, credulous, shallow – the latter is not without nothing one of the most prevalent biased opinions Germans have against Americans.

When going to or being in America, Germans might start to panic when they find out about the politeness code. Every sentence, every comment will be questioned: did he really mean that or is he just being polite? How should I behave?!
In the end one should be reminded about this: in no country the citizens expect a totally "correct" social behaviour from a foreigner. Most Americans know that Germans are – let's say – more direct. One has a little tolerance, as long as one has nothing against confirming a stereotype.

mores · 04-30-2008, 05:52 PM

Awesome post, thanks!
Even though I am canadian, I obviously left the country before I was taught in the art of lying politely, and now I live in a country where I reply "oh man, this day is so bad" when someone greets me with "howyadoin".

*insert-lightbulb-smiley-here*

NatCh · 04-30-2008, 05:53 PM

Thanks for sharing that, IceHand! I find cultural differences to be very interesting. I guess my 3/4 German heritage must account for my tendency toward excessive (by "American" standards) bluntness.

NatCh · 04-30-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mores

Awesome post, thanks!
Even though I am canadian, I obviously left the country before I was taught in the art of lying politely, and now I live in a country where I reply "oh man, this day is so bad" when someone greets me with "howyadoin".

There you go.

pilotbob · 04-30-2008, 05:56 PM

I've always thought if I wanted to expatriate it would be to Germany or New Zeland.

Don't know why Germany... perhaps because they make such nice cars... but I guess I've read other good stuff about it. Now, I find out that they "tell it like it is" too. Sounds refreshing.

BOb

astra · 05-01-2008, 05:06 AM

"I will think about it"...

It took me a few years to realise why people would not come back and ask me about my decision...

HarryT · 05-01-2008, 05:56 AM

Cultural differences can result in people seeming to be rude, when that wasn't the intention.

Eg, in Britain and the US, it's perfectly "acceptable" to walk into a shop, have a look around, and walk out again, while ignoring the serving staff. In France or Germany, if you don't say "Good Morning" (or whatever) when you walk into a shop, you'll be thought of as being amazingly rude!

IceHand · 05-01-2008, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Cultural differences can result in people seeming to be rude, when that wasn't the intention.

True. I can't help wondering how many of my comments and posts in this forum or elsewhere on the internet have been considered rude while that never was my intention ...

MickeyC · 05-01-2008, 07:41 AM

After I graduated from college in the US, I got a temporary job at Daimler Benz GMBH in Sindlefingen, Germany as what Germans call a Machinenbau practicant. This was a job on the factory floor intended for engineering graduates to give them experience actually working with the equipment and in the sort of environment they might eventually design.

First thing I discovered was that, when you have to stick your hands into a metal press machine (presswerk) that's stamping out parts from sheet steel, you learn German real fast!

Second, I learned to shake hands every day with every one I worked with. To not do that would have been considered rude.

And, third, I soon understood the difference in politeness codes. After I worked there a few weeks, one of the engineers called me into his office and asked me what I thought about how the factory was designed. And I politely said it looked great which got me a quizzical look because he expected me to really say what I felt. I quickly learned to be very frank.

Finally, I learned to drink beer all day and not get drunk. German women pushed carts selling milk, sandwiches, pretzels and bottled beer around the factory floor all day. And most the workers kept a bottle by their work station starting around 11:00 taking sips all day. Yet I never saw anyone drunk.

astra · 05-01-2008, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassidym

And, third, I soon understood the difference in politeness codes. After I worked there a few weeks, one of the engineers called me into his office and asked me what I thought about how the factory was designed. And I politely said it looked great which got me a quizzical look because he expected me to really say what I felt. I quickly learned to be very frank.

I definitely have some German blood.

Unfortunately, I am still very frank and it is not a very suitable for the UK.

RWood · 05-01-2008, 10:01 AM

My wife is German but born in this country. I often wonder which side is showing. When she asks if this dress looks good on her I have to be blunt, anything less will lead to a "discussion" about allowing her to waste money. She always ordered from the left side of the menu, never the right.

zelda_pinwheel · 05-01-2008, 10:10 AM

really interesting article ! thanks for the translation. it's pretty fascinating to compare different cultural standards. a friend of mine once told me about the different notions of "personal space" ; i may be getting the details* wrong, but in japan it's considered polite to remain about a meter away from the person you are speaking to, whereas in italy people like to stand much closer. so one day he observed the conversation between an italian and a japanese in a reception ; the italian was standing too close, so the japanese took a discrete step away. and then the italian unconsciously closed the distance, leaving the japanese to retreat further at the next occasion. and then the italian would again reduce the gap, so in the end they were chasing each other around the room. in the course of their conversation made at least two full laps. it's the cross-cultural conversational waltz.

*details i may have remembered incorrectly include approximate distances and specific nationalities. only the general underlying idea is certain. also the incident, which really happened, but i couldn't say where or when or who was involved.

zelda_pinwheel · 05-01-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWood

She always ordered from the left side of the menu, never the right.

what does that mean ?

and, perhaps you could add it to the colloquialisms thread...

NatCh · 05-01-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceHand

True. I can't help wondering how many of my comments and posts in this forum or elsewhere on the internet have been considered rude while that never was my intention ...

Yeah, that's a definite challenge in an international venue like MobileRead. I think that for the most part folks around here are willing to give the benefit of the doubt on such things (especially when a location is filled in to give a clue that it might be needed). Even so, I've seen it happen a few times, but this community is usually so easy-going that it smooths itself out pretty quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWood

She always ordered from the left side of the menu, never the right.

what does that mean ?

and, perhaps you could add it to the colloquialisms thread...

It's not really a colloquialism, per se -- restaurants tend to arrange their meals in increasing order of price as you go from left to right on the menu. In the U.S., anyway, I don't have any idea about the rest of the world.

zelda_pinwheel · 05-01-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

It's not really a colloquialism, per se -- restaurants tend to arrange their meals in increasing order of price as you go from left to right on the menu. In the U.S., anyway, I don't have any idea about the rest of the world.

thanks for the explanation, i didn't know that (although i'm a little disappointed ; it *sounds* like it could mean something colorful and unexpected... maybe we can make up a new meaning and mozzle our own colloquialism). is it something really common, that everybody knows over there ? i don't think it's the case here, although to be honest i've never really paid attention.

04-30-2008, 05:40 PM	#1
IceHand Linux User Posts: 323 Karma: 13682 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany Device: Kindle 3	Interesting article about different politeness codes in Germany and USA/GB/Canada I've recently read an article about different politeness codes in Germany and USA/GB/Canada and I was not aware of this before – how about you? When reading the article, notice that it's written by an American living in Germany and he's addressing a German audience. Feel free to point out mistakes I made in my translation. Original article in German, here is a rough translation (abridged version): Why Americans (Britons, Canadians) don't say what they mean Translated with kind permission of the author Hey, how are you? asks the American and is surprised, when the German tells him his ferret has just been run over. Just come on over sometime! says the Briton and is shocked, when the German really stands before his door eventually. Anglo-Saxons don't always mean what they say, Germans in contrast mostly do. When both cultures come together, more problems arise than just the handshake (translators note: reference to another article on the same blog). That is because Americans, Britons, Canadians and other people from this culture group talk enciphered in certain situations – this is due to politeness. For example it's rude to say "no" directly and thus something will be said that every other Anglo-Saxon will understand as "no", but does not mean "no". [Dear female readers: some problems with the word "no" are caused by gender more than culture though, sorry.] When questioned by her best friend if a dress looks good on her, a German woman might grimace and say "Hm, not really" or "I don't know, if it looks that good on you". An American woman though would more likely say something like "Wouldn't blue go better with your eyes?". For an American that means you look like an anorexic heroin addict, while a German has the feeling you're talking at cross-purposes. Eyes? Why is she talking about my eyes? I want to know if my ass looks fat! Other examples: In a discussion with Americans "I wonder if this is really the best solution" means "no". "I’m wondering if we might need more time" means "no" and "We might want to review some parts of the project" means "no". Americans are bewildered (or just angry), when a German considers such sentences shortly and then says, no, it's fine how it is – and then just carries on. From the American's point of view the sentences were very clear in their meaning. This is the case in everyday life as well. A polite Canadian will not say that he dislikes a present, because that would be rude and might hurt other peoples feelings. And that is – to come to the essential point of the article – in case of doubt more important than the absolute truth. That's why one would say it – if at all – enciphered and because the other person knows the code, he understands it and everything stays polite. Not without cause the terms white lie and polite lie exist in the English language: it's a socially required falsehood. The question arises how Britons & Co. react when they really like a present. In short, they freak the hell out. I always wanted that, honey, look here what she brought me, already as a child no before I was born I wanted exactly that, wait till I show the neighbors, thank you very, very, very much, I'll never forget this day and my grandchildren will still talk about it, it will be chiselled on my gravestone! When a German is uncomfortable with the situation and beginning to think he's being teased, it's exactly how it should be. However exhausting happy Anglo-Saxons might be for Germans: the other way around the problem is more grave. An American who gives a German a present is virtually always disappointed, because Germans never freak out in such a situation. In the code book of an Anglo-Saxon the normal German "thank you" means that he doesn't like the present. This author had to console quite a few fellow countrymen over the years, who would come back from a date frustrated with the complain: "She didn't like my present! What did I do wrong? I don't understand!" No, she loved it, but she's a German. That's just how they are. Marry her anyway. Now comes the part some of you might not like: the described principles are especially true when visiting another country, in our specific situation Americans in Germany. Parents will impress this upon their children: If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything. And thus they keep their mouths shut while they are visiting or are here because of an exchange programme: criticising the host is considered very disrespectful. That's why it's almost impossible to find out how an American or Briton liked Germany. When they are well brought up they'll always say that it was great. Fantastic. Totally amazing. Anything else would be just a little less impolite than cleaning ones nose with the tablecloth. For Germans that is frustrating. When someone stays in a country for a while they assume that there are some things one wouldn't like – of course. It's considered "honest" to talk about that and a differentiated opinion is a sign of a cultivated, critical mind. Who finds everything great, amazing, fantastic is considered dumb, credulous, shallow – the latter is not without nothing one of the most prevalent biased opinions Germans have against Americans. When going to or being in America, Germans might start to panic when they find out about the politeness code. Every sentence, every comment will be questioned: did he really mean that or is he just being polite? How should I behave?! In the end one should be reminded about this: in no country the citizens expect a totally "correct" social behaviour from a foreigner. Most Americans know that Germans are – let's say – more direct. One has a little tolerance, as long as one has nothing against confirming a stereotype. Last edited by IceHand; 05-03-2008 at 07:06 AM. Reason: Typos

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04-30-2008, 05:52 PM	#2
mores Guru Posts: 834 Karma: 102419 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Device: iPhone	Awesome post, thanks! Even though I am canadian, I obviously left the country before I was taught in the art of lying politely, and now I live in a country where I reply "oh man, this day is so bad" when someone greets me with "howyadoin". insert-lightbulb-smiley-here

04-30-2008, 05:53 PM	#3
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	Thanks for sharing that, IceHand! I find cultural differences to be very interesting. I guess my 3/4 German heritage must account for my tendency toward excessive (by "American" standards) bluntness.

04-30-2008, 05:56 PM	#5
pilotbob Grand Sorcerer Posts: 19,832 Karma: 11844413 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tampa, FL USA Device: Kindle Touch	I've always thought if I wanted to expatriate it would be to Germany or New Zeland. Don't know why Germany... perhaps because they make such nice cars... but I guess I've read other good stuff about it. Now, I find out that they "tell it like it is" too. Sounds refreshing. BOb

05-01-2008, 05:06 AM	#6
astra The Introvert Posts: 8,307 Karma: 1000077497 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: United Kingdom Device: Sony Reader PRS-650 & 505 & 500	"I will think about it"... It took me a few years to realise why people would not come back and ask me about my decision...

05-01-2008, 05:56 AM	#7
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Cultural differences can result in people seeming to be rude, when that wasn't the intention. Eg, in Britain and the US, it's perfectly "acceptable" to walk into a shop, have a look around, and walk out again, while ignoring the serving staff. In France or Germany, if you don't say "Good Morning" (or whatever) when you walk into a shop, you'll be thought of as being amazingly rude!

05-01-2008, 07:41 AM	#9
MickeyC Grand Sorcerer Posts: 16,732 Karma: 12185114 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Florida Device: iPhone 6 plus, Sony T1, iPad 3	After I graduated from college in the US, I got a temporary job at Daimler Benz GMBH in Sindlefingen, Germany as what Germans call a Machinenbau practicant. This was a job on the factory floor intended for engineering graduates to give them experience actually working with the equipment and in the sort of environment they might eventually design. First thing I discovered was that, when you have to stick your hands into a metal press machine (presswerk) that's stamping out parts from sheet steel, you learn German real fast! Second, I learned to shake hands every day with every one I worked with. To not do that would have been considered rude. And, third, I soon understood the difference in politeness codes. After I worked there a few weeks, one of the engineers called me into his office and asked me what I thought about how the factory was designed. And I politely said it looked great which got me a quizzical look because he expected me to really say what I felt. I quickly learned to be very frank. Finally, I learned to drink beer all day and not get drunk. German women pushed carts selling milk, sandwiches, pretzels and bottled beer around the factory floor all day. And most the workers kept a bottle by their work station starting around 11:00 taking sips all day. Yet I never saw anyone drunk.

05-01-2008, 10:01 AM	#11
RWood Technogeezer Posts: 7,233 Karma: 1601464 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Device: Sony PRS-500	My wife is German but born in this country. I often wonder which side is showing. When she asks if this dress looks good on her I have to be blunt, anything less will lead to a "discussion" about allowing her to waste money. She always ordered from the left side of the menu, never the right.

05-01-2008, 10:10 AM	#12
zelda_pinwheel zeldinha zippy zeldissima Posts: 27,827 Karma: 921169 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Paris, France Device: eb1150 & is that a nook in her pocket, or she just happy to see you?	really interesting article ! thanks for the translation. it's pretty fascinating to compare different cultural standards. a friend of mine once told me about the different notions of "personal space" ; i may be getting the details* wrong, but in japan it's considered polite to remain about a meter away from the person you are speaking to, whereas in italy people like to stand much closer. so one day he observed the conversation between an italian and a japanese in a reception ; the italian was standing too close, so the japanese took a discrete step away. and then the italian unconsciously closed the distance, leaving the japanese to retreat further at the next occasion. and then the italian would again reduce the gap, so in the end they were chasing each other around the room. in the course of their conversation made at least two full laps. it's the cross-cultural conversational waltz. *details i may have remembered incorrectly include approximate distances and specific nationalities. only the general underlying idea is certain. also the incident, which really happened, but i couldn't say where or when or who was involved.

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