Yet another thumb of the nose from publishers

[Zyzomys]

If no one figured out that they had given Amazon the go ahead to sell both editions at the same time then jobs need to be on the line. But I think they knew.

Where does Amazon get their electronic editions? If the answer is the publisher then of course the publishing houses knew.

I thought Amazon paid independent authors 70% of the retail price, as long as the ebook is above $2.99. If this is the same deal the large publishing houses get that would suggest a $9.99 ebook sale would net a publisher $7 while a newly released hardcover would net the publisher $12 (based on DMcCunney's numbers). It would seem to be a rather simple matter to come to an agreement somewhere between those two numbers (and since a hardcover has additional costs over an ebook, there is obviously some wiggle room). I imagine a $12 - $13 ebook release of a newly released best seller would work for both parties.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by mrscoach

I don't buy that publishers DIDN'T know Amazon would sell electronic books at the same time as hardbacks. You mean to tell me that not one person, not one lawyer at any point of the process, from any of the agencies, said "Hey, we haven't given them different release dates for these two editions. Do you think they might sell them at the same time?" only to turn around and say "Nah, they wouldn't do that, even though Dennis thinks we are getting less per Kindle edition. Let's just stick our head in the sand and hope for the best".

If no one figured out that they had given Amazon the go ahead to sell both editions at the same time then jobs need to be on the line. But I think they knew.

I wish I was that confident. It assumes publishers are smart and make sensible business decisions. I've seen too much evidence to the contrary over the decades.

For instance, an old friend was a consulting editor to a paperback house years ago, helping them to revive and reinvigorate a fading SF line. It took him 7 months simply to determine who they had under contract for what books, and another 5 to dot Is, cross Ts, and get new deals in place. At that, they lost some properties because the publisher had forgotten they had the rights, but the authors and agents had not, and promptly sent official requests that the rights revert as soon as the publisher's rights had expired. You would think a publisher would know what authors it had under contract for what books, and when their contracts would be up. Not so...

Another friend talked about his house getting a lesson in timing, and why you didn't remainder unsold hardcovers of a book at the same time you released the mass market paperback - the remaindered hardcovers would go on sale in the bookstore at the same time as the PB, for a lower price. Guess which the readers bought?

Yes, jobs should have been on the line. For all I know, some folks did find themselves seeking new employment, for either not realizing the Kindle edition was budget priced competition for the hardcover, or not realizing just how much competition it was. But the fact it happened didn't come as a particular surprise to me.
______
Dennis

[Duiker]

I have a general rule. If it's over $9.99 I get it darknet style. Plain and simple. If the publishers want my $9.99 I'll be happy to give it to them. If they want more, I'll get it for free. Their pricing blackmail only works if the customer has no alternatives. We do.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Same here, I don't buy hardback fiction and never will.
Quite apart from the expense, a hardback is simply a less convenient version of the book. I'm not going to pay more for an inferior (to me) product.

That's fine, and you're hardly the only one who feels that way. But enough people don't feel that way that hardcovers become bestsellers. the folks involved are generally paying a premium for faster access, and simply aren't willing to wait a year for the mass market PB to come out.

I buy hardcovers for two reasons: early access, and durable reading copies for books I want to keep. I've been slowly replacing some old paperbacks with hardcovers, as the PBs are at the point of crumbling or falling apart, many dating from the days before acid-free paper was commonly used. (I'm especially fond of SF Book Club anthology editions, where a couple of SFBC volumes might include a paperback series that was six books in PB form. In some cases, the SFBC edition is the only hardcover release, and the books were first publisher as MMPBs.)

I don't find them inconvenient, as I read them at home in a comfortable chair. I don't normally carry them around when I'm traveling - that's what my PDA with 4,000+ electronic volumes on an SD card is for.
______
Dennis

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by Duiker

I have a general rule. If it's over $9.99 I get it darknet style. Plain and simple. If the publishers want my $9.99 I'll be happy to give it to them. If they want more, I'll get it for free. Their pricing blackmail only works if the customer has no alternatives. We do.

High prices don't justifiy that.
If you fell it's too expensive, just don't buy it, and read something else. Or pay the price if you really want to read it.

Personally, i have no fixed limit. But prise will affect the number of books I will buy.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Amazon does have a very good reason to run loss-leaders (in the short to medium term), to build market share.
Once someone has bought a Kindle, the only type of DRM they can use directly (without stripping) is Amazon DRM. The device has an automatic way to buy from the Amazon store. Whispernet is designed to deliver books from Amazon. They are selling a platform, not just either a device or ebooks.

Yes, they are.

The Kindle from my viewpoint is priming the ebook pump. Amazon sees an opportunity in ebooks. They are already the world's largest catalog retailer, and I believer they are the largest book retailer. They already had the infrastructure in place to display the titles and accept the order and payment. Adding fulfillment in terms of immediate digital download was relatively trivial. eBooks have no warehousing or shipping costs. For Amazon, what's not to like?

Once the market was established by the Kindle, we started seeing the Kindle app for various platforms, so you didn't need a Kindle itself to purchase and read Kindle editions. Fine by Amazon - you can assume they make money on each Kindle they sell, but what they really want is to sell you the books. And their DRM is less a matter of reducing piracy and more one of vendor lock-in. If you have a kindle or Kindle app, the only place you can buy DRM protected commercial titles is from Amazon. Amazon's pricing and selection are such that Kindle owners don't see this as an onerous restriction, but it's still vendor lock-in.

The question is whether Amazon is playing the loss-leader game and accepting no margin or a loss to build market share. It's possible, but I doubt it. I definitely doubt it in the US market affected by Agency Pricing. The publishers were reacting to lowered revenues because Kindle editions were competing with hardcovers. If Amazon was actually paying publishers the same price for the Kindle edition as the hardcover, Amazon would be putting the loss in "loss leader", and I really don't see them doing that. Retailers will accept lower margins (or even losses) on selected hardcover titles to generate traffic and other sales. (The Harry Potter books were popular for this.) They won't do it across the board on all new titles. They want to stay in business.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Duiker

I have a general rule. If it's over $9.99 I get it darknet style. Plain and simple. If the publishers want my $9.99 I'll be happy to give it to them. If they want more, I'll get it for free. Their pricing blackmail only works if the customer has no alternatives. We do.

I'm sure the authors trying to make a living writing the books you read (as well as their agents, editors, and others involved in bringing you the books) are all firmly supportive of your stance...
______
Dennis

[Pookeysgirl]

[QUOTE=EowynCarter;1150668]High prices don't justifiy that.
If you fell it's too expensive, just don't buy it, and read something else. Or pay the price if you really want to read it.QUOTE]

I agree. I've paid some steep prices for books because they happen to be by one of my favorite authors and there's no way I would pass up reading one of their books.

I think the only time the darknet should be used is if you have already purchased the pbook and want to re-read it on your ereader. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The question is whether Amazon is playing the loss-leader game and accepting no margin or a loss to build market share. It's possible, but I doubt it. I definitely doubt it in the US market affected by Agency Pricing. The publishers were reacting to lowered revenues because Kindle editions were competing with hardcovers. If Amazon was actually paying publishers the same price for the Kindle edition as the hardcover, Amazon would be putting the loss in "loss leader", and I really don't see them doing that. Retailers will accept lower margins (or even losses) on selected hardcover titles to generate traffic and other sales. (The Harry Potter books were popular for this.) They won't do it across the board on all new titles. They want to stay in business.

I think you are probably right that they are not generally selling at a loss in the US market, it is a much more established one for them, and they are in a different stage of growth.

If they are not selling at or below cost in the UK, but are selling at less than 50% of the price of other stores then either they have a much better deal with the publishers or the other retailers are really ripping people off. I believe that in the UK they are willing to run eBook sales at a loss for 6-12 months to grab marketshare.

[mrscoach]

I have to say that I am enjoying this back and forth with Dennis. See we can debate nicely. I can even see his point of view, I just don't share it. He has made some good points.

And I think we both feel the publishers are currently shooting themselves in the foot.

[Madam Broshkina]

When ever a book is not available for the Kindle there is a link you can select under the "Tell the Publisher!" section that reads
"I'd like to read this book on kindle." I wish there was a link to suggest "I'd like to read this book at a reasonable price."

[Greg Anos]

for me, it's a moot point. I've taken the "well marinated" approach to my reading.

Wait 10 years before buying a new release. That'll give it time for a wide variety of people to weigh in on it's quality. (None of this "I went to opening night and it stank" problem).

And it's cheaper....

[mlewis78]

You must all know that this has been discussed numerous times since before the agency model went into effect earlier this year. Surprised that no one has mentioned that Apple was getting ready to open its ibook store and would only sign with publishers who would renegotiate their agreements with Amazon AND other ebook publishers. Amazon WAS selling new and best-selling books at 9.99 for more than two years. They were taking a loss. With the agency model, they are not allowed to take the loss. Hence, it's the consumer/reader who loses.

Random House did not enter into the agency model. I don't think that they sell on Apple's Ibooks. Not sure if Apple relented since this all started, but this is the reason you can find books published by Random House and its subsidiaries for 9.99. Occasionally now I see higher-priced ebooks at Amazon that are not set by the publisher, which I cannot understand. The publishers of those books are not a party to the agency model (rip-off).

Most of what I know about this is from last Feb.-April. I don't know if there have been any further developments, but the agency model agreements with Amazon and other booksellers are for one year.

Penguin negotiated their deal with Amazon later than the others and set their ebook prices even higher than the others.

All of the ebook sellers have to use the prices set by the publishers who have done this nasty thing to consumers/readers. All this while we are in the biggest employment recession since the Great Depression.

I don't buy hardcover books. I used to buy some non-fiction hardcovers, but I always preferred to wait for the pback. I have a huge collection of ebooks and paper books (not read yet) and will not buy ebooks that are priced so excessively nor their paper book counterparts. I also use the public library for reading some ebooks.

[Purple Lady]

Before I got my reader I used to buy most of my books in hardcover - I joined Literary Guild 3 or 4 times. The last time I joined they sent me another card to join after a month or two so I joined again. I just looked up my account and I got a total of 11 books for $51.04. They had a sale of buy one book get one free and they counted the free book towards my commitment of 3 books. So I ended up paying $4.64 each for 11 hardcover books(including shipping). That's cheaper than paperbacks.

When I see the ridiculous prices they are charging for ebooks, it doesn't make me go back to hardcover - I've found a lot of free books and a lot of coupons. 50% off at Fictionwise made a lot of their books cheaper tham Amazon and Kobo had $2 off and a lot of books $3 and under. I also borrow books from my library for free and get more current books that way. The publishers are only hurting themselves. If they charged reasonable prices I would buy more.

[jes1]

This week an ebook came out by an author I have read for years. If it woud have been released in the under $10 price, it would have been an automatic buy. Since it came out at $12.99, it is on my wishlist. Possible, I will buy it later after I have finished some of the books on my TBR list. But probably, I will check it out of the library and will read it. There is a good chance I will not bother buying it after that, since it may not meet my expectations. This is a lost sale when it would have been a definite sale at a slightly lower price. Agency pricing often fails in my case.