08-07-2012, 12:08 AM | #16 | ||
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And most reasonable people do want draconian punishments for heinous crimes, like raping and murdering 12 year old girls after decades of violent criminal history. Californians do have a history of responding to stupid and corrupt government going too far in one direction by going too far in the other direcion by way of the initiative system. It's our way of getting the monkey's attention in the legislature. Ignoring the problem certainly doesn't solve it. |
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08-07-2012, 02:36 AM | #17 |
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I didn't really understand this. They're identical, but made different by the presence of an employee onlooker?
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08-07-2012, 07:49 AM | #18 |
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Moderator Notice
Please stick to the original topic. If this thread moves in the direction of general politics, it will be moved to the P&R forum. Thank you. |
08-07-2012, 08:40 AM | #19 | |
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More bother, but once again, untrackable. The French government is finding out that stopping "piracy" is about as practical as stopping the tides... Last edited by Greg Anos; 08-07-2012 at 08:43 AM. |
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08-07-2012, 09:18 AM | #20 | ||
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08-07-2012, 09:20 AM | #21 | |
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08-07-2012, 09:56 AM | #22 |
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08-07-2012, 08:07 PM | #23 | |
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In the long run, if there is no sanction against book piracy, paying for books will be become suckers territory, or, at best, an act of charity. In rare situations, a business model based on alms can work. Very rare. With any punishment, the whole family suffers for the sins of one member. The French sanction for piracy isn't different in this respect from any other sanction, civil or criminal. I don't know about you, but if my child was in jail, I'd feel I was in jail. If my internet connection dies, I'm not in jail. I'm in the library. I've never been in jail, but I'm sure I like the library better. Vive la France (and don't be too sure that culture minister will have her way) Last edited by SteveEisenberg; 08-07-2012 at 08:17 PM. |
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08-07-2012, 10:20 PM | #24 | |
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08-08-2012, 02:50 AM | #25 | |
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I disagree, because the sanction affects others more directly than in other cases. If I have to pay a fine, then there is less money in the household, but I can choose to limit the suffering caused to others. If I had to find £1,000 to pay a fine, I might have to limit what I spent on my wife and/or kids, or I might have to take the money out of a joint savings account. In these cases, other people suffer. On the other hand, I might be able to take it out of my own savings, in which case, only I suffer. If someone disconnected our internet access because I was guilty of piracy, my wife and kids would also lose their internet access. There's no way for me to take the full force of the sanction. |
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08-08-2012, 07:02 AM | #26 | |
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Rape is draconian. Manslauthter is draconian. crippling and maiming assaults are draconian. You reap what you sow, justifiably so. |
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08-08-2012, 08:23 AM | #27 | |
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And I'm not sure what you meant by the library reference. Do you mean that you would use internet at the library? If that is the case, then I'd like to point out that the punishment for piracy becomes more a punishment for those around the infringer than the infringers themselves. |
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08-08-2012, 08:24 AM | #28 |
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08-08-2012, 09:56 AM | #29 |
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The problem with cutting off a person's internet access is that you're also cutting them off from easy access to social services (municipal updates, tax information, etc.), easy access to banking transactions (on-line banking, paying taxes) and (maybe) their preferred method of talking to friends and family (social media).
This might be okay if: (i) the process for determining who is pirating and who isn't was more thorough (likely requiring it to also be more intrusive), could effectively prevent false-positives, and had an easily accessible appeal process; and (ii) it could be shown that there's a logical connection between cutting people off the internet and reducing piracy. Unfortunately, HADOPI managed neither (i) nor (ii), so it's hard to see how cutting someone off the internet is justifiable, other than in an overly simplistic "well that's the law, so it's the law", fashion. Last edited by Ninjalawyer; 08-08-2012 at 09:59 AM. |
08-08-2012, 10:06 AM | #30 | |
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With speeding, it's a criminal offence, so I believe they must prove beyond reasonable doubt you were the driver or charge you with failing to disclose the identity of the driver (in which case they need to show you knew who the driver was). There was a pretty long winded discussion on this not too long ago (in the IP thread). Here's a recent court case as an example http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-18863644 Of course, the difference is piracy is still treated as a civil offence, reasonable doubt does not apply and it's possible that the 'someone else in the family did it' defence won't apply unless you can show who that was. The problem is that the punishment is quite harsh compared to the standard of proof required. None of the above is legal advice, just armchair quarterbacking/opinion |
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