I'm thinking of doing a style survey

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

However, its a matter of choice and there are many answers (much like if you ask which is the best font for an ebook). But with ebooks, you are able to format them any way that you choose.

But if you are unable to strip the DRM and then edit the eBook, you are stuck how the publisher formatted the eBook. And a lot of the time, it's not pretty. How did you ever manage to read a book given that it has no extra line spaces and it has indents?

The line spaces and lack of indents DO seriously draw the eyes away from the words and puts the focus on the formatting. That is not how a book is meant to be.

[speakingtohe]

I like my ebooks with no indent and a space between paragraphs as well.
Much easier for me to read on my Sony 600.
A tad hard on the thumb when three pages of one line paragraphs, but as I seem to read a paragraph at a time it works for me.

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by corona

I just discovered this thread and wanted to say what a great idea your survey is, Alex, and I'm wondering where the project stands.

Thanks, Corona. I got cold feet or writer's block or something. I still want to do it, but it's hard to get going.

Regards, Alex

[Solitaire1]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But if you are unable to strip the DRM and then edit the eBook, you are stuck how the publisher formatted the eBook. And a lot of the time, it's not pretty. How did you ever manage to read a book given that it has no extra line spaces and it has indents?

The line spaces and lack of indents DO seriously draw the eyes away from the words and puts the focus on the formatting. That is not how a book is meant to be.

I've had no problem reading with a book with first-line indents and no space between the paragraphs. Its not much of an issue with me, other than what I choose when formatting ebooks myself for my own ereader.

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I like my ebooks with no indent and a space between paragraphs as well.

And others prefer indents and no extra spaces. This is precisely why I say that ebook formats should do neither, but rather simply indicate to the reading device, this is a paragraph, here is another. This is a new passage, this is a new chapter...

Then, based on the user's options, set at their personal device, they can tell the reading hardware to either not indent and add one extra space, or indent and not add the space. Passages could have a dingbat (~, *, etc.) for non-indented texts, or as some readers prefer, passages of indented text without extra space have one blank line separating the passages (sections within a chapter, typically indicating scene changes).

Make formatting the responsibility of the device, under user control, not hard-coded into the content. Content should be fully FLEXIBLE and not device-dependent. As should have been learned from the printing industry's troubles to digitize (another story altogether), ebooks need device-independence. How it should have been to begin with, and I hope, how it will be, ultimately.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by William Campbell

And others prefer indents and no extra spaces. This is precisely why I say that ebook formats should do neither, but rather simply indicate to the reading device, this is a paragraph, here is another. This is a new passage, this is a new chapter...

Then, based on the user's options, set at their personal device, they can tell the reading hardware to either not indent and add one extra space, or indent and not add the space. Passages could have a dingbat (~, *, etc.) for non-indented texts, or as some readers prefer, passages of indented text without extra space have one blank line separating the passages (sections within a chapter, typically indicating scene changes).

Make formatting the responsibility of the device, under user control, not hard-coded into the content. Content should be fully FLEXIBLE and not device-dependent. As should have been learned from the printing industry's troubles to digitize (another story altogether), ebooks need device-independence. How it should have been to begin with, and I hope, how it will be, ultimately.

In an ideal world .....

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

In an ideal world .....

...that we can make ideal. It's up to us, all of us.

In the field of graphic reproduction, I've seen more insurmountable peaks conquered, and I helped make it happen though only one tiny voice. Not so many years ago, people in my industry would never have believed how ideal our world has become, because a great many of us tiny voices would not settle for "good enough." Keep asking for a better ideal and the world will change.

[GeoffC]

good on yer !

[JSWolf]

We did have a poll a while ago and most people preferred indents with no excess line spaces. That sort of format may have been OK on a tiny screen of low resolution. But screens have gotten bigger and higher resolution and that sort of eReader type formatting has to go. It just doesn't work.

How would you feel if you bought a pBook that has no indents and line spaces? Personally, I'd take it back. It's all about readability and no indents (except for section/chapter starts) and line spaces do detract from reading as it detracts the eye from the book and focuses the eye on the formatting. So really, that's why the eReader type formatting has to go.

And yes, I do agree that it would be nice if all reading software allowed user choices. But that's not the case and given what we have, we have to format the best way for the most people.

[neilmarr]

Not only about readability in treebooks, Jon, also a matter of saving the cost of the extra pages that would be necessary to lay out text with paragraph breaks.

In ebook, of course, layout space is not a consideration.

You may have noticed some recent non-fiction treebooks laid out to what's fast becoming standard ebook style. It's effective, but I don't think it would work for straight novels. Also it wouldn't be necessary. At least not yet. It's gonna take a shift in reader preference.

The current print standard (no indent on first line of a chapter or chapter section, following first paragraph lines consistently indented, no extra line breaks) was arrived at after a lengthy period of trial and error by publishers over a century or more. It's pretty well perfect, I think, and readers are used to it.

My own wee house still uses this layout for presentation of novels in ebook as well as treebook, though -- just now branching into non-fiction ebook-only deals -- we're using the new ebook standard of no idents and line breaks between pars.

Time and a few years' more experience on the part of readers and publishers will tell if this is a more practical form for novels, too. The beauty of ebooks, of course, is that it's pretty simple and none too costly to adjust to trend. Print's another matter entirely.

Cheers. Neil

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

[SNIP]
The current print standard (no indent on first line of a chapter or chapter section, following first paragraph lines consistently indented, no extra line breaks) was arrived at after a lengthy period of trial and error by publishers over a century or more. It's pretty well perfect, I think, and readers are used to it.

This sure as heck matches what I'd prefer to see on my ebook reader.

Originally Posted by neilmarr

My own wee house still uses this layout for presentation of novels in ebook as well as treebook, though -- just now branching into non-fiction ebook-only deals -- we're using the new ebook standard of no idents and line breaks between pars.

Nooooooo! Say it ain't so!!!! "No indents and line breaks between pars" is... is... YUCK! If you must choose a layout (rather than a semantic description), please, Please, PLEASE use the current print standard!

As various prior posters have pointed out, semantic description combined with user configuration (and semi-sane defaults) would let us all have the best of both worlds.

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Time and a few years' more experience on the part of readers and publishers will tell if this is a more practical form for novels, too. The beauty of ebooks, of course, is that it's pretty simple and none too costly to adjust to trend. Print's another matter entirely.

Cheers. Neil

Xenophon
(who was holding back, to avoid telling you what I really think...)

[neilmarr]

There's never a need to hold back here, I think, Xenophon. And your own posts are all almost embarrassingly well thought out and presented.

Your layout point is well taken. But there is a difference between the actual presentation of novels and non-fiction. Whereas novels must 'flow' with one paragraph leading seamlessly into the next, non-fiction often involves new and isolated facts, almost par-by-par. The ebook layout style is perfect for this.

We've steered clear of non-fiction so far (having been born and bred in journalism and super-sensitive to international libel laws, I know the legal pitfalls that can be involved, and we still won't handle self-help stuff and other such commercial nonsense). But our first non-fic, by a trusted old journalist pal from my Fleet Street days, is presented as a series of reported facts, self-contained and heavily illustrated. The new digital layout is perfect for it.

But, as I say, Xeno, it's an experiment. If reader-preference is for tradition print layout in ebooks, we'll simply revert. Re-doing an ebook is much more simple and a hell of a lot cheaper than re-setting type for print.

Cheers. Neil

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

But, as I say, Xeno, it's an experiment. If reader-preference is for tradition print layout in ebooks, we'll simply revert. Re-doing an ebook is much more simple and a hell of a lot cheaper than re-setting type for print.

Cheers. Neil

One of the reasons this idea of a survey is valuable to help inform that experiment ....

[neilmarr]

***One of the reasons this idea of a survey is valuable to help inform that experiment***

Exactly, Geoff. That's why I'm so seen to see this poll/survey happen. I only wish I had the technical skills to help Alex with it in return for the vital data it will provide for publishers, especially for small indies like our own without the resources for such independent and target-specific market research. Cheers. Neil