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Old 03-01-2010, 12:48 AM   #331
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The problem is not "CSS" alone, and a pure CSS editor is of little interest to me. Web page - HTML+CSS - creation is my concern. For it to be worthwhile, it would need to be paired with an equally capable HTML editor, the combined output making a complete web page. Even then, it seems clumsy and clunky compared to a single GUI, and I very strongly suspect it would meet with very little market acceptance.

And frankly, again, I am not interested that specialists find it easy to use. I am interested in the web in terms of mass media, and most people find CSS+HTML frankly arcane, since there is a distinct and notable lack of any even remotely decent WYSIWYG editors!

And no, unlike say XSL, CSS handles inheritance very badly*. It has little concern for anything except expert hand-editing, it's near-impossible for a consistent set of rules to be applied to allow automagic generation of reasonable script, especially since you need to essentially do over for each of the major layout engines.

As I said, you can't even be sure of the cascade order for many tags.

Which again is the issue, and why we DON'T have a reasonable WYSIWYG editor... (along with the basic issue of making natural layouts HARD!)

(*Not that I entirely agree with how XSL does it either. But my own ideas on handling inheritance both ways are something I've incorporated into the XML-based layout format of my data-driven game-editor design and that's propitiatory. Plus, my ideas are not precisely new, just specialised and as far as I know no game editor does anything like it - certainly none on the market do )

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Old 03-01-2010, 01:58 AM   #332
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The points I was making were not aimed at specialists. I'd prefer myself to simply write the mark-up, but I described something I thought a lot of others would find easy to use, and it wouldn't require any knowledge of HTML or CSS. Would they find it as easy as traditional WYSIWYG? I don't know why not. I've yet to be presented with a specific reason why not. And if it's a litle clumsier, people will do it anyway once they realize that it gives them the ability to customize even the works of others. You said CSS was the reason there wasn't a GUI. Now it's HTML. Whatever.

What you say about CSS being handled differently by different engines does not match my experience at all, with the single exception of IE. And what you say about scripts sounds like something only specialists would care about. (And something that would only be compounded by allowing WYSIWYG at any stage of creation.)

But this is still all very general and vague complaints, and I have trouble relating without any examples to illustrate the problems. But so be it. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm tired of this discussion, and I think you are too.

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Old 03-01-2010, 02:48 AM   #333
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ahh citation? just google it. Mozilla has nearly 30%

IE has about 60% share

like I said "fickle"

chrome is stating to make a dent at nearly 6%

there is ZERO loyalty to IE. it is PURE convenience and or laziness IE its what COMES with 92% of the computers sold and its what "auto loads" for 92% of the computers sold

so that is what by default 92% of computer sold USE on the internet until the user makes a conscious decision to alter that "default".

Even when they do it "finds" ways to auto load IE now and them so often that I have to firewall block it just to make sure it does not do anything hinky if it does load. its amazing how many things EMBED IE into themselves.

Loyalty is the last term of relevance to Internet Explorer Browser usage.

in fact much of the usage is OVERLAP. you will have firefox safari chrome and opeara users also popping up on the IE list because of its embedded nature in many applications whether the user wants it or not.

hence why its a shockingly even "split" between IE6 IE7 and IE8 ie many people never both to upgrade it because they are using something else.

This fickle nature of jumping from browser to browser is caused by HEY look at my slick new browser so they really have no incentive to "fit" to standards as long as they can draw users.

Hopefully as the net matures that will change.
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Old 03-01-2010, 03:03 AM   #334
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EPUB

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Originally Posted by renareto View Post
Hi all,
I would have some opinion about the ebook format that would be the standard in next future.
I know it its a stupid question, but, i would buy an ereader, and i want to be sure it will support the 'standard' of ebook.

my idea is that this should be epub.
what do yo think about?

TIA

Renato
It's a bit loke Beta and VHS with the videos when they first came out, however with this senario converters are available, if your favourite book is only available in a certain format, then get a converter and change it to EPub or whatever, but for me EPub seems to be the best...so far...
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:15 AM   #335
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ahh citation? just google it. Mozilla has nearly 30%

IE has about 60% share

like I said "fickle"
"Fickle" isn't a market share dropping 30% in fifteen years! Indeed, movement in browser market share is fairly glacial compared to other markets, such as office suites.

Quote:
you will have firefox safari chrome and opeara users also popping up on the IE list because of its embedded nature in many applications whether the user wants it or not.
Not if the people taking the metrics are even marginally competent.

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hence why its a shockingly even "split" between IE6 IE7 and IE8 ie many people never both to upgrade it because they are using something else.
Nope. People don't upgrade because newer browsers - newer than IE6 and Firefox2 - have a bluntly intimidating UI. Things KEEP getting added which complicate it, for no good reason.

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HEY look at my slick new browser
No, that "slick new browser" is why people are still using IE6.
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:18 AM   #336
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The problem is that most publishers have a CSS they use that has lots of extra junk in it. And what they do use from the CSS can be a rather big mess. That's why a lot of ePub look awful as they come. If it wasn't for the fact that I can strip the DRM and then clean up the CSS to look how I want, I'd be maybe back to paper books.
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:57 AM   #337
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>>>"Fickle" isn't a market share dropping 30% in fifteen years! Indeed, movement in browser market share is fairly glacial compared to other markets, such as office suites.

Firefox grabbed that 30% pretty fast. Why would you take information and apply your own standards to it without even attempting to see how it actually happened?



>>>Not if the people taking the metrics are even marginally competent.

I doubt its really possible to make the distinction with any sort of reliabilty. How would you distinguish from a human request using a browser and a robotic request in software? in most cases you can't


>>>>Nope. People don't upgrade because newer browsers - newer than IE6 and Firefox2 - have a bluntly intimidating UI. Things KEEP getting added which complicate it, for no good reason.

Your "nope" is rejected because its stupid. NO ONE uses IE6 intentionally unless they simply do not use much on the internet or just don't care. half the internet is broken in IE6

Firefox from a UI perspective is virtually identical today as it was when it came out.

IE is virtually identical as when it first came out.

Opera is virtually identical as when it first came out.

I know I have many many versions of all of them. Would you like screen shots?


>>>No, that "slick new browser" is why people are still using IE6.

about 15-20% are using IE6 sorry the data says you are clueless.

Seriously did you enter this conversation with the preconceived notion that you would reject reality and replace it with your own regardless of what was said without even looking at what was said?

I am not TRYING to be combative but I want to nip this kind of rational in the butt early lest it get very boring in here.

if you have data to back your contentions up GREAT post it and I will update my reality to jive with the world. Till then....

ANY the point of what I said.

Because STANDARDS are not what causes someone to SELECT a web browser they are largely irrelevant.

IE was the most non standard browser around for the longest time. yet it made everything look fine. IN FACT IE ENCOURAGE BAD WEB DESIGN because it would "internally" fix problem code and "make it right"

took me a while to figure out why a page would look like crap in opera (old days) but fine in IE. its because the PAGE was BROKEN and opera CORRECTLY displayed the page as it was written.

IE would go hmm thats not right let me fix that for you and display it as it figured it should be displayed.

at that point I stopped using IE as opera/firefox made me a better web page designer since they were no longer HIDING my bad code from me :-)

and again IE having market share has nothing to do with UI or power or ability.

it has to do with this simple fact that you have no say in that you can not argue. That you can not dispute that you can not retort on any level.

92% of computers sold come with WINDOWS

100% of windows installations come with Internet Explorer.

Human's are largely lazy and or do not care or have no REASON to care what browser they use at least initially.

therefore 92% of human's who buy a computer will use Internet Explorer in some flavor or another and NOT UPGRADE unless they have a personal DESIRE to upgrade or encounter a problem that requires and update.

Its just that simple.

if "XYZ" Operating system had 92% of the market share and it came with CHROME built into it as a default then you can bet that a SIGNIFICANT portion of the population would be using CHROME instead.

Its just how life works.
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Old 03-01-2010, 01:46 PM   #338
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Five years to get back from 2% to 30% is not "fickle" by any remotely sane definition.

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I doubt its really possible to make the distinction with any sort of reliabilty
Of course it is. It's trivial, even. Here's one way - while the odd app might pop up IE, you measure page request volumes alongside users. Or you count only browsers which request two or more pages. Or... wait, you claim to be a web designer? It really IS that trivial...something doesn't add up there.

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NO ONE uses IE6 intentionally unless they simply do not use much on the internet or just don't care. half the internet is broken in IE6
How self-centred. You're simply talking your criteria and projecting them onto everyone else. IE6 still has a 20% market share. That's significant. A site is broken if it doesn't display properly in the browsers with significant market share (I'm prepared to accept 5%, although that seems high - 2.5% maybe) used by it's visitors, and working if it does. There is no other criteria.

As to the rest, you're clearly a troll. *plonk*
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Old 03-01-2010, 01:52 PM   #339
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The reason IE 6 is having issues is that the websites do not want it connected to there sites due to the security issues that IE 6 has and due to its age will not be fixed.
If for not other reasons IE6 should not be used if you want to pretect you computer and network. MS will even tell you that.

Chuck
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Old 03-01-2010, 01:57 PM   #340
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Great, when your business can afford to throw away 20% of it's users...
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Old 03-01-2010, 02:21 PM   #341
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>>>>Five years to get back from 2% to 30% is not "fickle" by any remotely sane definition.

I don't disagree but your still wrong. The reason your wrong is the 2% to 30% figure is wrong.

Many people who record statistics for their sites show nearly 50% usage of firefox.

While this may not be super accurate it does show that 30% is wrong. Plain and simple.

If you ignore the users who DO NOT CARE what browser they are using and therefore use whatever browser is already on the system the figures come out QUITE differently.

For example. what are the statistics if you IGNORE ie6 and just compare Ie7 just before it was INTEGRATED into windows with firefox. Why THAT specific comparison? simple really. neither at that time could "come" fully integrated into your computer from the factory. you had to make a CHOICE to pick IE7 or Firefox. ie "active" choice. Passive choices don't count since they are determined by corporate decision ie monopoly control and not by END USER decisions ie a valid comparison of the browser.

when you entrenched as the "default" the only time a passive user will make a change is if the default is broken enough to DRIVE them to make a choice. Otherwise they WILL USE whatever is in front of them.

that would be like me forcing all manufacturers to ONLY make cars "black" and then proclaim black is the best color because the majority of the cars out their are black.

False Logic.

while that number would also be inaccurate (since there is likely to be a very small userbase who simply preferred IE6 over IE7) I think it would be far far more accurate than what they are using now ie GLOBAL numbers ignorant of intent.

IE the difference between an ACTIVE user base and a PASSIVE user base.

>>>Of course it is. It's trivial, even. Here's one way - while the odd app might pop up IE, you measure page request volumes alongside users. Or you count only browsers which request two or more pages. Or... wait, you claim to be a web designer? It really IS that trivial...something doesn't add up there.

Then why does no one do this? clearly its not so TRIVIAL as you make it out to be.

>>>>>How self-centred. You're simply talking your criteria and projecting them onto everyone else. IE6 still has a 20% market share. That's significant. A site is broken if it doesn't display properly in the browsers with significant market share (I'm prepared to accept 5%, although that seems high - 2.5% maybe) used by it's visitors, and working if it does. There is no other criteria.


My contention is that IE6 DOES NOT have a 20% market share of "active" ie RELEVANT users. For example all my IE statistics show up as IE6 but I DO NOT USE IE6.

I used firefox and opera exclusively. but guess what.? take a guess as to what version of IE is on my system and I can NOT remove it (well I can but other things BREAK if I do that so I can not if I wish to use those other things) and I have zero interest in wasting hard drive space with a new version of something I will never use. So the version that is "their" stays.

IE6 why? because that is what comes "built into" my version of windows xp. No other reason. its a PASSIVE entry of ie6 usage statistics and those entries are NOT VALID ENTRIES when your trying to make a "success" comparison or "usage" comparison between browsers.

Not self centered of me at all. Its called reality.

>>>>As to the rest, you're clearly a troll. *plonk*

WOW I have not seen PLONK used in years. Your either an old net user or a wannabe newb.

My point stands. you have shown ZERO of anything to validly contradict anything I said.

Simply "your say so" and how "dare me" contradict your edict.

This is a discussion you can not win because it is one where you are simply not correct.

The most you can do is delude yourself into believing it. Reality does not care.

Last edited by nerys; 03-01-2010 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 03-01-2010, 02:28 PM   #342
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Great, when your business can afford to throw away 20% of it's users...
Again false logic and your own personal reality distortion field.

20% of a web sites users WILL NOT BE USING IE6 I challenge you to find one remotely popular site with REGULAR IE6 usage from its userbase.

Good luck with that.

On top of that you won't be throwing that business away. The majority of those users would simply "DO" what they needed to in order to continue to use the site.

IE update the browser or install another one.
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Old 03-01-2010, 08:59 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
The problem is that most publishers have a CSS they use that has lots of extra junk in it. And what they do use from the CSS can be a rather big mess. That's why a lot of ePub look awful as they come. If it wasn't for the fact that I can strip the DRM and then clean up the CSS to look how I want, I'd be maybe back to paper books.
I think the key for a viable ebook format is consistency. Based on what I've read, it seems like ePub formatting is not consistent from reader to reader. To contrast, one of the main strengths of a PDF is that it renders consistently as long as it is sized for the ereader's screen. When I create a PDF for my reader I know exactly what it will look like on my reader.

I've taken a look at CSS for HTML and one of the things that struck me about it is how inconsistent it is with HTML formatting. It basically has its own rules that differ from HTML, and this makes things more complicated.

For me, HTML is a good ebook format as long as consistent rules are set down when tagging (such as not allowing tags that cross each other) that must be followed without exception. Rather than CSS, I'd like to see consistent default formatting established as a starting point for all ebooks on all readers (such as a default font and a standard amount of space between the paragraphs), but these can be altered via formatting instructions within the tags (like tag codes that indicate "this paragraph is in Helvetica" and "no space after this paragraph").

If no specific formatting instructions are provided within an ebook, then the ebook should look the same on all ebook readers. Also, rather than trying to take shortcuts within the format, I'd rather see a very verbose ebook format where everything that is not the default is explicitly spelled out within the tags. This will allow for better rendering since everything is clearly spelled out within the ebook.

Just my opinions, thanks for reading.
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:38 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Solitaire1 View Post
[FONT="Georgia"]I think the key for a viable ebook format is consistency. Based on what I've read, it seems like ePub formatting is not consistent from reader to reader. To contrast, one of the main strengths of a PDF is that it renders consistently as long as it is sized for the ereader's screen. When I create a PDF for my reader I know exactly what it will look like on my reader.
But not what it will look like on a different-sized reader, or a computer screen, or a Blackberry. There is no format that looks the same on all readers.

Quote:
For me, HTML is a good ebook format as long as consistent rules are set down when tagging (such as not allowing tags that cross each other) that must be followed without exception.
Who decides on the tags? What happens when the technology changes, and browser programming can offer more options--are we stuck with the old tags? Are old books no longer compliant because they use deprecated tags?

Quote:
Rather than CSS, I'd like to see consistent default formatting established as a starting point for all ebooks on all readers (such as a default font and a standard amount of space between the paragraphs),
Why should one person's reading preferences become the default for all readers? Some people like serif fonts. Some like sans serif. Some have preferences that change depending on what they're reading on. (I like serifs on my Sony, but sans-serif on LCD screens.)

Quote:
but these can be altered via formatting instructions within the tags (like tag codes that indicate "this paragraph is in Helvetica" and "no space after this paragraph").
You're assuming all devices will have Helvetica. Or that, as is the case now, a lot of formatting just won't apply to all devices, and books will look different depending on what machine you use to read them.

Quote:
If no specific formatting instructions are provided within an ebook, then the ebook should look the same on all ebook readers.
They can't. Not all ebook readers have the same display tech. A 3" iphone screen and a 6" e-ink screen and a 19" computer monitor cannot make ebooks "look the same."

Quote:
Also, rather than trying to take shortcuts within the format, I'd rather see a very verbose ebook format where everything that is not the default is explicitly spelled out within the tags. This will allow for better rendering since everything is clearly spelled out within the ebook.
We've got that. What we don't have, is devices that will read all of those tags. And the more verbose the coding, the longer the book takes to load; while devices are getting faster all the time, they still slow down on books with lots of formatting. So most programs work to eliminate unnecessary or redundant coding -- with the problem that, on a different machine, those distinctions might be useful.

There aren't any simple answers. And we tend to forget, in the discussions, that we don't have one perfect format for printed material, either--we have mass market paperbacks, and hardcovers, and coffee-table books, and magazines, and folded brochures, and 4" stapled pamphlets, and letters in envelopes, and 2'x3' architectural blueprints, and tiny medical instructions shoved in pill bottles.

The print industry never settled on a single standard for all written material, and it's pointless to think that digital written material is ever going to come up with one perfect format. It's possible that most novels will settle on a format, but non-novel ebooks may be scattered across several formats--some epub or mobi, some PDF where layout is critical, some .exe with multimedia embedded, some .cbr because text is unimportant to them, and so on.
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:46 PM   #345
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what we NEED to make Ebooks work is good value for the money. which is something tey refuse to give us.

I will not pay $10 or $15 for an ebook. the damned paper print book many times is cheaper than that and I actually OWN IT.

an ebook you can never "truly" own since its ethereal. and that is how it should be priced.

$1 to $3 for an ebook $5 for something truly large expensive or valuable is plenty. 25 cents or less for mags. (I CAN BUY a mag for under a dollar at subscription prices)

They simply want too much money. They want the same retail price of a print book which just means they want magnitudes more profit since a NOT insignificant cost of that book is the materials that go into putting it into your hands.

the cost of putting an ebook into your hands is under a penny and it should be prices accordingly.

I just want it to cost the SAME as a store book and then cut that in half (since your giving me less value for the money)

a Novel is $7 in the store. How much of that is printing paper binding shipping and store profit? subtract ALL of that and you have the actual "worth" of the book.

take that price and cut it in half. THAT is what I want to pay that is what I think would be fair.

ONCE YOU DO THAT then format becomes an issue and the solution is easy. make it simple make it open so people can convert it anyway they wish for any format they wish or any reader they wish.

if a novel was $1 I would not even CONSIDER pirating it (I don't anyway I always buy the hard print for any download I read 100% of the time I have a think for OWNING the actual physical thing)

Make it fair and you will have me. Charge me $9.99 for a DRM'd book that is $3 more than the paperback in the store and you would have to be mad to expect people to jump on that enmass.

Last edited by nerys; 03-02-2010 at 05:48 PM.
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