Amazon uses DMCA to restrict where you can buy e-books

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by tompe

Maybe they have to increase the price of the Kindle if they do that?

I think MobiPocket is an old and technically bad format for today's hardware. So it is perfectly understanding that they do not want to sell MobiPocket books since then they do not have the option of improving the format.

What they should have done was supporting ePub.

Mobipocket is the exact same format as AZW that they already use. There is no work at all to support that format and they would not need to raise the price. The only difference is in the DRM used with one obscure bit toggled in the database.

What they should have done is impossible to fix in the past. They didn't and while I think they should this is not a condition that has anything to do with this discussion technically. It wouldn't open the format to other DRM systems for dealers and it wouldn't solve the DRM problem with libraries, unless they paid Adobe to do it and that might raise the price.

Dale

[Sonist]

Wow! I really wish you guys had taken a stance and ignored the request.

It's bluffing: they send a form notice, hoping that most would comply, even if not in actual violation, or not subject to the law.

On the other hand, I can say that, because it's not my site And if they file a complaint, I don't have to answer it. (But I'd bet, if you contact a couple of relevant organizations, there is a good chance someone would be itching to take a case like this, pro bono, of course.)

The only way to deal with this is at the ballot box: don't vote for a representative, who support DMCA-like legislation, and vote for those who oppose it, regardless of party affiliation. And let them know why. If Joe the Plumber makes enough noise, at least some will respond.

BTW, is there a list of who supports DMCA-type legislation somewhere, and who opposes the DMCA?

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Wow!
The only way to deal with this is at the ballot box: don't vote for a representative, who support DMCA-like legislation, and vote for those who oppose it, regardless of party affiliation. And let them know why. If Joe the Plumber makes enough noise, at least some will respond.

BTW, is there a list of who supports DMCA-type legislation somewhere, and who opposes the DMCA?

DCMA isn't really even involved in this actually. Amazon is using this as a red herring. DCMA is for copyright protection and this tool does not break or even tamper with anything to do with copyrights. It is a tool that effects locking Amazon's reader to only use Amazon's eBooks. It forces the reader but does nothing to protect the author or publisher. There are other tools that can break DRM but this particular tool does not do that. This is really a monopoly issue.

I don't like DCMA anymore that you do but it is being misused IMHO.

Dale

[tompe]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Mobipocket is the exact same format as AZW that they already use. There is no work at all to support that format and they would not need to raise the price. The only difference is in the DRM used with one obscure bit toggled in the database.

I meant that if people can buy books in other places it will reduce the income from Amazon's book selling it might be that the income from the book selling had been used to reduce the price of the Kindle.

That the azw format just now works very similar to the MobiPocket format does not mean that it is the same format. And since Amazon have full control they can update the azw format to something that is not compatible with MobiPocket.

Personally I do not consider files that uses to large image data to be proper MobiPocket files since they cannot be read on my Palm T5. So already now azw is not the same as a proper MobiPocket file.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by tompe

I meant that if people can buy books in other places it will reduce the income from Amazon's book selling it might be that the income from the book selling had been used to reduce the price of the Kindle.

That the azw format just now works very similar to the MobiPocket format does not mean that it is the same format. And since Amazon have full control they can update the azw format to something that is not compatible with MobiPocket.

Personally I do not consider files that uses to large image data to be proper MobiPocket files since they cannot be read on my Palm T5. So already now azw is not the same as a proper MobiPocket file.

Actually it is the same format although they do allow larger images. Mobipocket itself now allows larger images. Folks have broken the DRM on AZW books and used them on other machines although I do not condone that. The image problem is a bit different in that the mobipocket format supports 3 different sized images for different sized devices. The book author or publisher is supposed to supply all three images but of course the AZW happens to be missing the smaller images. This is not a format change. You must know this since you already removed the DRM for your test.

The price of the Kindle clearly shows it is not be subsidized by the sale of books. Amazon makes a healthy profit on the reader.

Dale

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

DCMA isn't really even involved in this actually. Amazon is using this as a red herring....

I absolutely agree.

That's why I said:

"Wow! I really wish you guys had taken a stance and ignored the request.

It's bluffing: they send a form notice, hoping that most would comply, even if not in actual violation, or not subject to the law."

[tompe]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Actually it is the same format although they do allow larger images.

What do you mean by same format? There is no specification of the format so you can not say that they have promised to be compatible always. The thing is they can update the firmware in the Kindle and start releasing awz-books that cannot be read in a MobiPocket reader even if you remove the DRM. The claim that it is the same formt will fool people in believing that the two formats will be compatible forever.

Mobipocket itself now allows larger images.

Were have you read that? I could not find that on their web site when i looked a while ago.

The image problem is a bit different in that the mobipocket format supports 3 different sized images for different sized devices.

They support different images sizes. But the data for the image cannot be larger than around 60KB anyway. The different sizes it to avoid having to rescale the image.

The point is that the only readers that have to be able to read awz files are the readers that Amazon have full control over. So they can get away with being incompatible with MobiPocket.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by tompe

What do you mean by same format? There is no specification of the format so you can not say that they have promised to be compatible always. The thing is they can update the firmware in the Kindle and start releasing awz-books that cannot be read in a MobiPocket reader even if you remove the DRM. The claim that it is the same formt will fool people in believing that the two formats will be compatible forever.



Were have you read that? I could not find that on their web site when i looked a while ago.




They support different images sizes. But the data for the image cannot be larger than around 60KB anyway. The different sizes it to avoid having to rescale the image.

The point is that the only readers that have to be able to read awz files are the readers that Amazon have full control over. So they can get away with being incompatible with MobiPocket.

The 60K limit was do to a limitation is the size of the database entry in the old Palm format. Besides I wasn't suggesting that AZW work on other machines, I was only suggesting that MobiPocket be allowed to work on Amazon machines. You have tried to reverse the discussion. Amazon already accepts Mobipocket files so long as they do not have DRM so we already know they know how to read them. If they implement something that prevents AZW files from leaving Kindle then, who cares.

Dale

[dreams]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Just found these amazing new details on Amazon's Kindle 3
..........

Amazon Brick-With-A-Note-Attached ....

Dear Secret Amazon Labs,

------>

Sincerely,

A Sony 505 owner

[tompe]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

The 60K limit was do to a limitation is the size of the database entry in the old Palm format.

Yes, and? It still seems to be in the specification for the MobiPocket format.

Besides I wasn't suggesting that AZW work on other machines, I was only suggesting that MobiPocket be allowed to work on Amazon machines. You have tried to reverse the discussion.

You claimed it was the same format and I think it is wrong to claim that since it might fool people.

And if we accept that it is two different formats then people owning the right for a work can decide to allow distribution for just one of these formats. So to me it seem that converting between the formats then can have something to do with rights and copyright.

[wayrad]

Originally Posted by nekokami

if they issue a press release acknowledging that this wasn't a DMCA violation after all, and apologizing to Mobileread for the inconvenience, would that be enough?

I think that'd do it for me. But they'd better be quick about it. I'm currently a mod in a book search board that is Amazon-supported, and I think I will need to resign soon rather than include the mandatory Amazon link in successfully answered queries.

[radiationman]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Wow! I really wish you guys had taken a stance and ignored the request.

It's bluffing: they send a form notice, hoping that most would comply, even if not in actual violation, or not subject to the law.

On the other hand, I can say that, because it's not my site And if they file a complaint, I don't have to answer it. (But I'd bet, if you contact a couple of relevant organizations, there is a good chance someone would be itching to take a case like this, pro bono, of course.)

The only way to deal with this is at the ballot box: don't vote for a representative, who support DMCA-like legislation, and vote for those who oppose it, regardless of party affiliation. And let them know why. If Joe the Plumber makes enough noise, at least some will respond.

BTW, is there a list of who supports DMCA-type legislation somewhere, and who opposes the DMCA?

Except if I understand the way the DMCA is worded - the content must be removed once the takedown notice is received - once the content is down then you can fight the takedown...

[-Thomas-]

Originally Posted by TadW

A simple Google gives a cached version of this URL.

I bet they have already sent them an DMCA takedown notice as well...

I've read the whole thread from beginning tonight even though I'm not directly affected as I don't own a Kindle. But in my mind this isn't a way to deal with customers generally and with early adopters especially.

For the future I'll buy my p-books from other stores than Amazon. We have fixed book prices here in Germany regardless of the book shop you buy from, so it won't hurt to buy from other stores. At first I'll try it for, say, a year and look how things work out.

IMO the only way to argue with such companies is by letting your wallet talk, and that's what I'll do.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by radiationman

Except if I understand the way the DMCA is worded - the content must be removed once the takedown notice is received - once the content is down then you can fight the takedown...

Yes, that's correct. It's part of the "safe harbor" provision.

[bwaldron]

Originally Posted by tompe

That the azw format just now works very similar to the MobiPocket format does not mean that it is the same format. And since Amazon have full control they can update the azw format to something that is not compatible with MobiPocket.

Their "improved" format is Topaz (.azw1 or .tpz); right now, .azw is mobi.

I don't at all think that this is about possible improvements to the format. If they are interested in a better ebook format, they can support ePub (with their own flavor of DRM if they so decide).