Series sort (firmware 2.3.x) - Page 3

davidfor · 01-26-2013, 01:14 AM

Because of something said elsewhere, I am curious about what people think of the current sorting with series information.

The current title sorting is to include the series info as part of the title. The title is treated as:

{series name} - {series number} {book title}

This means that all books for a series are sorted together when sorting by title. I agree with this. When I first saw it, I had to think about it, but it does match how I think of the books.

But, I have seen elsewhere a statement that this is wrong. The title sorting should be purely on the book title and exclude the series information.

What are peoples opinions?

Terisa de morgan · 01-26-2013, 02:48 AM

The statement is mine

and I keep my saying: Series is not part of the title, so sort by title shouldn't include it. Another matter is thinking that series order (that's what you really have: title is not taken into account aside of very special cases in a series or lack of series info) could very useful, and I've requested it too.

davidfor · 01-26-2013, 03:56 AM

I was hoping you would turn up

Apparently we think differently. I do include the series in the title when I think of the book. And there are a few series where I couldn't tell you the titles, I only think of the series and the order. If you look at the cover of a lot of series books, you will see the series name in large text and the book title really a subtitle. This is especially the case for longer series that are being reprinted. And yes, the paper books on my shelves are organised in series order within author. Or at least those that aren't scattered around the rest of the house.

If we are lucky, Kobo will give us both options. But, if they only give us one, I want the one we have now. If we have both, I doubt I would change to the other very often.

Terisa de morgan · 01-26-2013, 04:07 AM

David, it is your thinking. Title sort is title sort, no matter which your preferences are. I don't like or dislike it, I think IT IS NOT a title sort. As I've told you, I'm thinking about a lot of people who don't come here, don't go mixed in these discussions, and who have always known what "title sort" means. ¿My preferences? Both of them. Aside of that, I'm tech-savvy enough to work my way around it if I want, but it's not only me.

davidfor · 01-26-2013, 05:03 AM

Terisa, I have actually been surprised that there weren't more complaints about the sort sequence here. Early on, there were comments, but once people knew what was happening, I can't think of any that said it was a bad idea. And if you look further back, there is a lot of discussion about how to get the books into series order.

But, using the people here is a problem. Anyone who is here is not a normal user. So, for the wider world...

The book shops around here don't agree with you. If I go into a book shop here and go to the Sci Fi area, the books are shelved in series within author. When I look at the YA shelves with my sons, they are shelved in series with author. Sometimes the series is in the alphabetical place within the other non-series titles, sometimes at the start of the authors section.

I don't think I have ever seen the Harry Potter books sitting on a shelf in anything other than series order. Same goes for Lord of the Rings and the Narnia books. I recently bought my son a boxed set of the "A Song of Fire and Ice" series. Guess what order the books were in the box?

It might be a bit different if you are talking about books in a universe rather than a series. I don't think I have ever seen mention of a sequence for Agatha Christies Poirot or Miss Marple books. But, I rarely see mention of the titles of these books without mention of whether it a Poirot or Marple book. These aren't on our bookshelves in series order as my wife bought all of Christie's books in a set that have three novels per book and are in publication order.

John F · 01-26-2013, 05:27 AM

I agree with Terisa, keep it simple. If Kobo wants to provide advanced sorting options that would be great.

Terisa de morgan · 01-26-2013, 05:54 AM

Well, if you say so, I don't think library books agree with you, either. They sort by title, and, if they use author, they order books by title, not series.

You are using as criteria: Author + Series + Number + Book. Author doesn't appear in Kobo sort. What happens if two series has the same name? Are we getting mixed series?

John F · 01-26-2013, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F

I agree with Terisa, keep it simple. If Kobo wants to provide advanced sorting options that would be great.

And by advanced options, I meant user selectable/changeable advanced options.

davidfor · 01-26-2013, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

Well, if you say so, I don't think library books agree with you, either. They sort by title, and, if they use author, they order books by title, not series.

I have no idea as I haven't been in a library for a while. But, I did wonder what they were doing while I was writing my post.

Quote:

You are using as criteria: Author + Series + Number + Book. Author doesn't appear in Kobo sort.

It does in the Author sort. All the sorts have multiple elements in them. If you sort by file type, it will order by file type and then title within the same types. The author sort does title within the authors. Which is what a library or book shop will do. Well, a book shop effectively use genre, author, title. And from what I see, they consider title to includes the series.

Quote:

What happens if two series has the same name? Are we getting mixed series?

That is correct. You will have to rely on something else to tell the series apart. But if that is a concern, then the same title for different books is a bigger concern.

Liesse · 01-26-2013, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidfor

True, but I hope they add a series list.

Yes, this would work really well! If they've gone to the trouble of having series data with books, it would be a logical step to use it in this way. I hope Kobo have this on their To Do list.

Quote:

On the Glo, I've always thought that the search was in the wrong place. The Touch has it in the top left corner instead of the home button. The Glo should have the search next to the home button.

Yes, making it more prominent would make it more obvious.

I think I agree with David too, that series information shoudl be in the sorting. Perhaps this is because I read a lot of ScFi/Fantasy/Urban Fantasy books that tend to have (sometimes quite long!) series. This is exactly the reason I used to sort my library with a shelf for a series or author -- because it is so hard to keep track of without the series info.
I have far more books with the same TITLE rather than same series. I can think of about three in my library at the moment. Again, its a curse of my favoured genres: words like Magic, Dragon, Raven, Lion, Secret, Battle just keep cropping up in those book titles and it is the series that helps keep them different.

Sometimes I also define series myself: I've had a few that I'd followed that change names after a few books. They might start off named for a main character and then change to reflect a theme or plot point. Both are valid, but I pick the one I like best. For me "The Hobbits" series is as valid as naming them "Books of Middle Earth" or sticking everything related in a "Tolkien Books" series. I can control this in a way that I can't change the title. Either way, I know I want series information there prominently.

Terisa de morgan · 01-26-2013, 07:29 AM

Anyway, if you add a criteria AFTER author sort or size sort, you should add it AFTER title sort, not before. So you could use series after title, not before.

John F · 01-26-2013, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidfor

...

It does in the Author sort. All the sorts have multiple elements in them. If you sort by file type, it will order by file type and then title within the same types. The author sort does title within the authors. Which is what a library or book shop will do. Well, a book shop effectively use genre, author, title. And from what I see, they consider title to includes the series.

...

On the Kobo, if "sort by title" means series, series #, title shouldn't "sort by author" mean author, series, series #, title?

davidfor · 01-26-2013, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F

On the Kobo, if "sort by title" means series, series #, title shouldn't "sort by author" mean author, series, series #, title?

My apologies, that is what it does and is what I meant. In relation to the Kobo sorting, I have gotten used to the series info being included as part of the title. Which is basically what Teresa and I are arguing about, whether the title sorting should do that or not. And to be consistent, that would extend to its use elsewhere in the sorting.

PeterT · 01-26-2013, 08:58 AM

Personally I much prefer the Title sort to include the Series data. Frankly, if it the sort does not include the series data, why even bother including it?

The thing to remember is just because books are arranged one way in a physical library or book store, does not mean we have to carry that metaphor over to a different medium, that of an electronic library.

I have loved the fact that I could dispense with the complexities of a plugboard and renaming material to add that extra info to the title, thus shortening the length of the title, and would really lament if it were to change.

Terisa de morgan · 01-26-2013, 09:36 AM

Because of my job (software designer/tester/manager) I like complexities in their place, being able to give simplex things and complex things to people according to their preferences, and including in title things that are not title (although I like them) hurts my engineer heart

01-26-2013, 02:48 AM	#32
Terisa de morgan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,227 Karma: 11768331 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Device: Kobo Clara/Aura One/Forma,XiaoMI 5, iPad, Huawei MediaPad, YotaPhone 2	The statement is mine and I keep my saying: Series is not part of the title, so sort by title shouldn't include it. Another matter is thinking that series order (that's what you really have: title is not taken into account aside of very special cases in a series or lack of series info) could very useful, and I've requested it too. Last edited by Terisa de morgan; 01-26-2013 at 03:26 AM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
series sort question	speakingtohe	Library Management	30	04-16-2012 12:46 PM
eReader App with sort by series?	hard_boiled	Android Devices	3	03-21-2012 07:57 PM
PRS-T1 How to sort series in order?	Lanix	Sony Reader	10	02-20-2012 09:18 PM
Sort books in series	whoadammit	Calibre	2	02-16-2012 11:59 AM
Sort collection by series number?	rp272	Plugins	2	08-05-2011 01:50 AM

01-26-2013, 01:14 AM	#31
davidfor Grand Sorcerer Posts: 24,907 Karma: 47303748 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Sydney, Australia Device: Kobo:Touch,Glo, AuraH2O, GloHD,AuraONE, ClaraHD, Libra H2O; tolinoepos	Because of something said elsewhere, I am curious about what people think of the current sorting with series information. The current title sorting is to include the series info as part of the title. The title is treated as: {series name} - {series number} {book title} This means that all books for a series are sorted together when sorting by title. I agree with this. When I first saw it, I had to think about it, but it does match how I think of the books. But, I have seen elsewhere a statement that this is wrong. The title sorting should be purely on the book title and exclude the series information. What are peoples opinions?

01-26-2013, 03:56 AM	#33
davidfor Grand Sorcerer Posts: 24,907 Karma: 47303748 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Sydney, Australia Device: Kobo:Touch,Glo, AuraH2O, GloHD,AuraONE, ClaraHD, Libra H2O; tolinoepos	I was hoping you would turn up Apparently we think differently. I do include the series in the title when I think of the book. And there are a few series where I couldn't tell you the titles, I only think of the series and the order. If you look at the cover of a lot of series books, you will see the series name in large text and the book title really a subtitle. This is especially the case for longer series that are being reprinted. And yes, the paper books on my shelves are organised in series order within author. Or at least those that aren't scattered around the rest of the house. If we are lucky, Kobo will give us both options. But, if they only give us one, I want the one we have now. If we have both, I doubt I would change to the other very often.

01-26-2013, 04:07 AM	#34
Terisa de morgan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,227 Karma: 11768331 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Device: Kobo Clara/Aura One/Forma,XiaoMI 5, iPad, Huawei MediaPad, YotaPhone 2	David, it is your thinking. Title sort is title sort, no matter which your preferences are. I don't like or dislike it, I think IT IS NOT a title sort. As I've told you, I'm thinking about a lot of people who don't come here, don't go mixed in these discussions, and who have always known what "title sort" means. ¿My preferences? Both of them. Aside of that, I'm tech-savvy enough to work my way around it if I want, but it's not only me.

01-26-2013, 05:03 AM	#35
davidfor Grand Sorcerer Posts: 24,907 Karma: 47303748 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Sydney, Australia Device: Kobo:Touch,Glo, AuraH2O, GloHD,AuraONE, ClaraHD, Libra H2O; tolinoepos	Terisa, I have actually been surprised that there weren't more complaints about the sort sequence here. Early on, there were comments, but once people knew what was happening, I can't think of any that said it was a bad idea. And if you look further back, there is a lot of discussion about how to get the books into series order. But, using the people here is a problem. Anyone who is here is not a normal user. So, for the wider world... The book shops around here don't agree with you. If I go into a book shop here and go to the Sci Fi area, the books are shelved in series within author. When I look at the YA shelves with my sons, they are shelved in series with author. Sometimes the series is in the alphabetical place within the other non-series titles, sometimes at the start of the authors section. I don't think I have ever seen the Harry Potter books sitting on a shelf in anything other than series order. Same goes for Lord of the Rings and the Narnia books. I recently bought my son a boxed set of the "A Song of Fire and Ice" series. Guess what order the books were in the box? It might be a bit different if you are talking about books in a universe rather than a series. I don't think I have ever seen mention of a sequence for Agatha Christies Poirot or Miss Marple books. But, I rarely see mention of the titles of these books without mention of whether it a Poirot or Marple book. These aren't on our bookshelves in series order as my wife bought all of Christie's books in a set that have three novels per book and are in publication order.

01-26-2013, 05:27 AM	#36
John F Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,147 Karma: 63458771 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Kobo Glo HD	I agree with Terisa, keep it simple. If Kobo wants to provide advanced sorting options that would be great.

01-26-2013, 05:54 AM	#37
Terisa de morgan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,227 Karma: 11768331 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Device: Kobo Clara/Aura One/Forma,XiaoMI 5, iPad, Huawei MediaPad, YotaPhone 2	Well, if you say so, I don't think library books agree with you, either. They sort by title, and, if they use author, they order books by title, not series. You are using as criteria: Author + Series + Number + Book. Author doesn't appear in Kobo sort. What happens if two series has the same name? Are we getting mixed series?

01-26-2013, 07:29 AM	#41
Terisa de morgan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,227 Karma: 11768331 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Device: Kobo Clara/Aura One/Forma,XiaoMI 5, iPad, Huawei MediaPad, YotaPhone 2	Anyway, if you add a criteria AFTER author sort or size sort, you should add it AFTER title sort, not before. So you could use series after title, not before.

01-26-2013, 08:58 AM	#44
PeterT Grand Sorcerer Posts: 12,141 Karma: 73448616 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Toronto Device: Nexus 7, Clara, Touch, Tolino EPOS	Personally I much prefer the Title sort to include the Series data. Frankly, if it the sort does not include the series data, why even bother including it? The thing to remember is just because books are arranged one way in a physical library or book store, does not mean we have to carry that metaphor over to a different medium, that of an electronic library. I have loved the fact that I could dispense with the complexities of a plugboard and renaming material to add that extra info to the title, thus shortening the length of the title, and would really lament if it were to change.

01-26-2013, 09:36 AM	#45
Terisa de morgan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,227 Karma: 11768331 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Device: Kobo Clara/Aura One/Forma,XiaoMI 5, iPad, Huawei MediaPad, YotaPhone 2	Because of my job (software designer/tester/manager) I like complexities in their place, being able to give simplex things and complex things to people according to their preferences, and including in title things that are not title (although I like them) hurts my engineer heart

Advert

Advert