The Forever War by Joe Haldeman

[leebase]

The Forever War by Joe Haldeman.

Life's too short to read this book. I am puzzled by it's winning awards and garnering great reviews. I admit, I'm not usually fond of dystopias in the first place but I am very interested in sci fi, millitary fiction and I even appreciate a bit of sexiness in books. All of which The Forever War has.

It's just that the author doesn't write any of it all that well or compelling. There's a war theme. Even a rather interesting idea of space travel warping time such that a soldier engaged in interstellar war suffers such time dilation that every time he returns "home" to earth, it's a different and alien place. Yes, that's a cool idea and plot device. However, the war story sections fall flat. The battle scenes are not compelling. The camaraderie scenes do not bond you with the main character. He's nothing like the story teller of Orson Scott Card, Eric Flint or David Weber.

The different dystopias of earth are interesting ideas -- but not told in very compelling ways.

The aliens -- they were not brought to life in any meaningful way.

The horror of war was there -- but not told in any way that would move you.

Sex -- plenty of talk about sex -- none of it actually sexy. He goes from complete sexual promiscuity where the female soldiers are required to have sex with any and every male soldier....to complete homosexuality where everyone is gay but the archaic "from the past" main character. Kind of an interesting idea...perhaps people in the 70's found it shocking...but it's not compellingly told from my current vantage point.

There's a love story theme throughout -- but again, it's simply not told well. You don't fall in love with the main character's love of each other.

I'd love to see what a David Weber or John Ringo could have done with Halderman's ideas. He had some truly interesting ideas and plot lines. But I had to force myself to finish the book. I had read half of it before starting on the five book Alvin Maker series by OSC. I read the first of those with my youngest daughter and was simply compelled to devour the next and the next. Not so with The Forever War. There are just so many other really great books that take up the themes and plot devices of this book to bother reading it.

It wasn't the worst book I've ever read. It isn't even a BAD book. There are definitely interesting thoughts and points. It's just not a very well told story.

Lee

[Vintage Season]

Bear in mind that when it was first serialized in Analog, in 1974, The Forever War was perceived as a rather significant commentary on Haldeman's own service in Vietnam, and also perceived as a well-conceived response to Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The fact that it was Haldeman's science fictional debut (under his own name, at least) only adds to the novel's status.

As a reader, if you like early Heinlein, you probably like early Haldeman. If you dislike early Heinlein, you will likely dislike early Haldeman for the same reasons.

It is worth noting that you probably wouldn't have writers like David Weber or John Ringo if it hadn't been for the ground that Heinlein, and then Haldeman, broke.

- M.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Vintage Season

It is worth noting that you probably wouldn't have writers like David Weber or John Ringo if it hadn't been for the ground that Heinlein, and then Haldeman, broke. - M.

Haldeman is no Heinlein. But yes, I agree that old school sci fi was far more about ideas than story telling.

Maybe Haldeman did break ground by writing of an army where women are required to have sex with all the guys....and they don't seem to mind. Is that ground that needed to be broken? Are we enlightened?

Does any current gay person feel ennobled by the depiction of homosexuality in the book?

Were there truly no "war is hell" books before this one? And if not -- should we still laud this one which does such a poor job of it?

Anyway -- I totally accept that I'm not in step with the majority on this book. That was part of my surprise in reading it. It has overwhelming rave reviews on Amazon. It's about topics that I like to read about very much. There are some very interesting ideas in the book and even more so when you reflect on Veitnam.

All that's true and yet the book, read today, is BORING as all get out.

IMHO

Lee

[Donnageddon]

Different strokes for different folks (to coin a cliche), but the Forever War is in my top twenty favorites, and one I have reread many times.

If you want another take on the SF "war is hell" theme, I suggest Harry Harrison's Bill, The Galactic Hero. That one is in my top ten.

[Vintage Season]

Originally Posted by leebase

But yes, I agree that old school sci fi was far more about ideas than story telling.

Sadly, we don't agree... because that isn't what I was saying—or implying!—at all. But the nature of "old school sci fi" is largely a matter of perception, and yours and mine differ.

Not trying to argue you out of your stance on this novel; you have read it, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and any honest review is potentially beneficial to those who have not already encountered the same work.

- M.

[HarryT]

As has been said, we all have different tastes. This too would be on my "top 10" list of military SF novels.

[Pete]

I'm with the OP, I wasn't impressed. It wasn't bad, but I don't understand people's love of it.

[Greg Anos]

Hmmm. with every good story, there's and other level beneath the level you look at.

The hidden level in The Forever War is that of an average person trying to cope with a new (and not understandable) environment, and every time he approaches coping, the rules completely change again. Over and over. When he finally strips down to his innermost core, he get pitched out of the funhouse... (until the sequel, where he gets shown the that the world outside the funhouse is an even bigger funhouse.)

Haldeman is not my favorite writer, but I've read some of his works. Buying Time is the best of the ones I've read. But they all have big flaws in their structures, and depend too much on Deus Ex Machina for their endings. But he fits a era and an age that has a group of readers that haven't grown too old yet, so he's still highly rated.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Hmmm. with every good story, there's and other level beneath the level you look at.

The hidden level in The Forever War is that of an average person trying to cope with a new (and not understandable) environment, and every time he approaches coping, the rules completely change again. Over and over. When he finally strips down to his innermost core, he get pitched out of the funhouse... (until the sequel, where he gets shown the that the world outside the funhouse is an even bigger funhouse.)

Haldeman is not my favorite writer, but I've read some of his works. Buying Time is the best of the ones I've read. But they all have big flaws in their structures, and depend too much on Deus Ex Machina for their endings. But he fits a era and an age that has a group of readers that haven't grown too old yet, so he's still highly rated.

I think you may be right about the age thing, I think his books may resonate more with those that were alive during Vietnam. I've seen that mentioned a few times.

You're definitely right about the Deus Ex Machina. The final book in the Forever War trilogy is the only one I've ever read that had a literal use of that. I didn't find it a satisfying conclusion.

But as I said, I did enjoy the book overall. I don't want to come across as too down on it.

[nyrath]

YMMV, but in my view:

THE FOREVER WAR by Joe Haldeman is a war novel with powered armor from a post-Vietnam left-wing perspective
STARSHIP TROOPERS by Robert Heinlein is a war novel with powered armor from a pre-Vietnam right-wing perspective
ARMOR by John Steakley is a war novel with powered armor from a middle of the road perspective.

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by leebase

But yes, I agree that old school sci fi was far more about ideas than story telling.

I agree. Unfortunately my tastes have changed, and I remember several authors that I enjoyed when I was a teenager/young adult, because I liked the ideas, but would find boring today, because the writing is not so good.

I wish I had read this book when I was younger, because I probably wouldn't enjoy it now Oh well, there are so many books to read anyway...

[radius]

Originally Posted by leebase

The battle scenes are not compelling. The camaraderie scenes do not bond you with the main character. He's nothing like the story teller of Orson Scott Card, Eric Flint or David Weber.

Originally Posted by leebase

I'd love to see what a David Weber or John Ringo could have done with Halderman's ideas.

I think if your taste runs to Ringo, Flint, and, to a lesser extent, Weber, you will find it difficult to enjoy The Forever War. Unlike the above books, the protagonist is a cerebral, introspective character, and not an affable, outgoing man. Maybe you identify more with the latter, and that's why you find the book to be dry.

[HamsterRage]

It's been years since I read Forever War, but I remember enjoying it. Starship Troopers is one of my all time favorites.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I never really thought of Starship Troopers as a war novel. There's just way too much of the flashback classroom stuff, and it really beats you over the head with all the commentary about the individual and his relationship with society. Finally, it reads more like a "coming of age" story than a war story to me.

None of that stuff stuck me as particularly right wing. The ideas Heinlein pushed always seemed to me to be politically ecumenical, but socially progressive (but not in a liberal v. conservative way).

[leebase]

Originally Posted by radius

I think if your taste runs to Ringo, Flint, and, to a lesser extent, Weber, you will find it difficult to enjoy The Forever War. Unlike the above books, the protagonist is a cerebral, introspective character, and not an affable, outgoing man. Maybe you identify more with the latter, and that's why you find the book to be dry.

I spoke of what I didn't enjoy. I'm interested in what you found cerebral in the lead character. Other than telling us he had a high IQ, there was nothing in the story displaying his intelligence.

Do you find the depiction of women as obligated (and apparently willing) sex partners to any and all of e make soldiers particually intelligent?

I find Honor Harrington to be a much better developed character and it's a young adult series.

Lee

[radius]

Originally Posted by leebase

I spoke of what I didn't enjoy. I'm interested in what you found cerebral in the lead character. Other than telling us he had a high IQ, there was nothing in the story displaying his intelligence.

Do you find the depiction of women as obligated (and apparently willing) sex partners to any and all of e make soldiers particually intelligent?

I find Honor Harrington to be a much better developed character and it's a young adult series.

Lee

Hi Lee,

I didn't have the problems that you did with sexuality.

It's been a few years since I read the book (which I do consider a classic), but I don't remember the women being exactly obligated the have sex with all the men. In fact, I'm having trouble understanding what you mean by both obligated and willing at the same time?

I read the sex as being used for a few purposes:

1) To speculate a little on a future with integrated armed forces
2) To show the increasing alienation of the protagonist as he stays in the army. After he returns home and then go back to the army and finds everyone is now homosexual, that gives the feeling of what it might be like to be a soldier returning from Vietnam to find that nobody understands you, or looks at you funny
3) As a science fiction device to show the future will be different and to show the passage of time. At first everybody is only gay, but eventually, with more time dilation, sex ends up being entirely useless to "Man" since individuals are just like cells in his gestalt.

I don't see them so much as individuals themes or ideas by themselves, but just as part of the backdrop.

To me the aliens in The Forever War were interesting. Since we, like the main character, see them only in between flashes of gunfire, they are truly alien, difficult to understand and outside our experience.

Regarding the idea of the novel as a dystopia, I have trouble figuring out where you get that from (unless you see the character of Man as a horrifying endpoint for humanity?). If you mean earlier on during William's visit to his mother and so on, I always thought that was just a slight exaggeration of contemporary American society. Was it really so far out that you would consider it dystopian?

You point out yourself that there are a number of interesting ideas in the book, and you are doing so with over 35 years of perspective, and 35 years of other authors building on those ideas.

Finally, you asked what "a John Ringo" could do. He wrote his own power-armour-soldiers story and all we got was that Aldenata series; essentially pulp fiction for the 2000's.