Page numbers in ebooks for scholarly research?

[kovidgoyal]

Suppose you prepare a ebook in html say. Now you want to add a reference to a particular paragraph in the ebook. In order to do this you run some algorithm to find out what the number of the paragraph is (say by previewing the book in a viewer app, in reference mode). Then you add the reference. Now if a user of the book tries to follow that reference all he need do is use the same viewer app/algorithm to decode what that reference points to.

[bowerbird]

right. we need to agree on a methodology. that's my point. so invent one everyone likes.

[kovidgoyal]

As long as the author of the reference includes a link to the methodolgy she uses, there is no need for everyone to use the same methodolgy.

The solution you propose, inventing an ebook format that everyone likes, is far, far less likely.

[bowerbird]

and if paragraph 81 means one thing to one author, and another thing to another, no big deal?

[kovidgoyal]

As long as they work on separate texts yes. If they're working on the same text i'm sure they can agree on what app/algorithm to use for para numbering.

[bowerbird]

you just said agreement wasn't necessary! now you say it is. ok, i'm off this merry-go-round...

[kovidgoyal]

Sigh, do you ever actually bother to think about what I say? I said agreement between authors and readers is not necessary. Agreement between two authors working on the same text is obviously necessary.

[bowerbird]

if other people get on your ride, they can go in circles... but i'm off the merry-go-round.

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by bowerbird

if other people get on your ride, they can go in circles... but i'm off the merry-go-round.

You are now on my ignore list.

[bowerbird]

that's great news. i'm glad to hear it!

[GregS]

What a great thread.

I only have few minutes before work. Legacy page numbers are very important, so is the fact that different printed editions had different page numbers. For epub and other light-weight encodings, the idea of having a multitude of "Milestones/page numbers" cattered within the text is not very elegant.

The idea of having these in the a meta file seems a good elegant solution. But the references being external also need a way of identifying the exact positioning without planting targets in the body of the work (why not then put the references directly into the body?).

IDs are in sense already there. And there is no predicting what is the most important structural unit of every text, nor the particular numbering system that should be used.

But IDs are definitely the right thing to be using for the future.

All established numbering systems create (with xmlnamespace implied) unique references II.iii.486, gets me to the same place in Hamlet (it isn't broken so why fix it).

But in a meta-file how do I specify that the folio edition of Hamlet that page x eneded not only mid line, but mid word?

II.iii.486/4/3 - word 4 letter 3.

That is possible, but not catered for in any scheme I know of.

Legacy page numbers, and in some instance, multiple legacy page references can be essential. They should be within the etext , ideally, but there is much to be said for having them external - after all they need only surrender their positions on request, they do not have to be displayed. Hence identifying the particular IDs I am interested in, the edition I am referencing to, it is a trivial lookup to be given the page numbers (without the problem of which of the editions should display their numbers).

Fragmenting the CSS style sheet, and putting everything into the etext might also be possible, hence I specify for my usage, paragraph numbers to be displayed along with the page numbers (in the text) for a specific edition. It could overburden the standard and that has to be considered (ie making epub a poor substitute for TEI, which really it cannot do).

XMLnamespace has to better solved than it is if this technology is to remain useful for texts. Establishing a numbering systems via IDs is critical and should be a mandatory part of the any standard (with or without legacy page number references - I am not dismissing it, this is very important).

[bowerbird]

different editions are stored at different u.r.l., so there's no conflict with differing pagenumbers.

[GregS]

bowerbird It gets complex when dealing with academic texts.

A reference says page X of such and such edition, the text is the same in all editions, but finding it can be near impossible sometimes.

Hence a single edition of say a major work like Darwin's Origin of the Species, will have radically different page numbers, while the text is unchanged.

Ideally in a single serious digital edition, several important paper editions' page numbers should be included (for works of academic, study, educational interest) along with absolute references (to chapter and paragraph) via element IDs and xmlnamespace.

I have problems with URLs because of their impermanence.

[bowerbird]

as i said, you need to remove the impermanence, or nothing will work. _nothing_.

when you make a reference, it's reasonable that it's to a specific page in a specific edition.

[GregS]

PS In terms of numbering systems, lines, paragraphs etc.,. I think we need a few recommended models, but literature is just too diverse to use the same system of numbering for every possible work (what a about musical scores for instance?)

Element IDs presume nothing. Sequential numbering from biggest divisions through to smallest useful structure, which will be often the paragraph, but not always.

As it a unique sequential reference so long as you can get there unambiguously and refer to it usefully that is all that matters.

Take the Communist Manifesto that has numerous prefaces, but consistent enough text (bearing in mind different translations/editions).

German.Preface.1872.23 (I made the date up) consists of just two IDs a division one "German.Preface.1872" and a paragraph.

While the text itself has since publication used Chapter divisions, Subchapter divisions within which paragraphs reside, and if memory serves correct numbered lists.

Treating the list as paragraph is one option, or as another object hence Chapter.2.Section.3. list.1. item.3 works.

Same with illustrations, examples, quotes and other parts which may present problems being classified as paragraphs. Plates, may be placed in the text in a digital edition, but in the original it belonged within its own section. Hence listing them as Plate.3 makes sense.

Horses for courses.

What would be nice is mandating early that important structural divisions should be sequentially numbered, and perhaps a number of ideal examples.

In the end no matter how many examples are made, there will be some literature, through former usage or particularities of its composition may engender its own form.

The convention I would like to see implemented is inferred subdivisions using a slash, with IDS using the dot convention (allowing joined reference points as used above).

The last convention would be the use of the emdash to indicate a continuance from one place to the next Act.II.Scene.iii.45/3 -- 48/6.

Implied positioning means the subdivisions within the lowest number structure.

Paragraph.23/3 means the third sentence (the sentence marked or implied being the second possible structure of a paragraph) While 23/3/4, is the fourth word in that sentence.

Shakespeare lines have only words, etc.

We need to have normal commercial fiction using IDs for paragraph numbers, the form as long as it is consistent within the work, does not really have to follow any particular scheme (readability is important).