I was really happy with Kobo until...

[dos]

Originally Posted by taming

Hey Dos--I think folks on page one of this thread understood exactly what you were saying about the Kobo format, but where you went (and for me at least, how you got there) took us all "off point" as the discussion progressed.

See a post I made on page one quoting people who misunderstood what exactly I was complaining about. People think I'm talking about poorly formatted ePubs, which is why some keep bringing up publishers, etc. I'm complaining about the limitations of a different format altogether, the Kobo-developed "native" format sold on kobobooks.com, borders.com, etc alongside the eBook format.

Originally Posted by Pookeysgirl

I apologize if I misunderstood, but it seems to me that this is a complaint against the reader itself. Maybe I'm not reading it in the right context.

Kobo develops more than the reader hardware and software itself. But those things also have legitimate issues, that really should have been ironed out at this stage of the game if Kobo was more meticulous about development and QC.

It's bizarre how quick some people are to white knight a corporation they like. The more consumers complain about issues like this, the more feedback Kobo has to develop a better product (if they want to). It's a corporation, not a person. I'm sure nobody's feelings are hurt by constructive criticism.

The problem in my OP is something I'd expect to see in a beta version of the format, images not displaying at all is actually a pretty serious limitation. Plenty of books rely on more than just plain text to get their message across.

[zoran]

Originally Posted by dos

I'm complaining about the limitations of a different format altogether, the Kobo-developed "native" format sold on kobobooks.com, borders.com, etc alongside the eBook format.

No problem. I turned my brain on and did recall kobo using sqlite as db.
For some reason I also had on mind some xml file having some index,
but I was curious once and let it live peacefully. I still think that format
shown to the end user depends on the publisher.

It's bizarre how quick some people are to white knight a corporation they like. The more consumers complain about issues like this, the more feedback Kobo has to develop a better product (if they want to).

White is the color that becomes dirty pretty quick. Contrary, fast knight is
a good knight. Again, I would rather put stress on particular book, not on
sqlite.

The problem in my OP is something I'd expect to see in a beta version of the format, images not displaying at all is actually a pretty serious limitation. Plenty of books rely on more than just plain text to get their message across.

MySQL or PostgreSQL are much better but big, big, big. Further, how
many million books one could store on the reader to have a benefit?
One more further, I do not expect kobo to change selling policy in any
way. I, as a user of reader, prefer epub, that I could change and remade
and <insert_something_smart>. Spite I have nerves for empty pages
and strange line breaks, I often simply change few tags or css lines. At
least it makes me pleasure to blame myself later.

[Zyzomys]

I think many people offered you an easy solution that you are ignoring. KoboBooks does sell books in ePub format, ePub works perfectly on the Kobo and does show all the graphics. You can easily visit your Library on Kobo and download the book you purchased earlier, this time in ePub format to your Adobe Digital Reader and then transfer it to the Kobo. This is all perfectly legal and should not take you more than 5-minutes (in my experience this is probably faster than using the Kobo Desktop App to load books onto the Kobo).

As for poorly formatted ebooks, this has happened to me with purchases from Amazon, Sony, SmashWords, and Kobo - both mobi and epub versions. Luckily, once DRM is removed, calibre can fix all these "problems" (or just personal preferences in my case) very easily. I find taking problems to the developer of calibre to be far more effective than trying to get Amazon, or Kobo (or Sony, ... etc.) to change their ways.

[timlegge]

Hi

My theory, regarding the sqlite database, is that it is used on the Kobo because the iPhone and iPad use sqlite as an app's data storage.

If that is the case and if the kobo format book is indeed the same in the database of the iPhone, iPad and Kobo reader then there is a bug in the reader.

I have several books that include graphics and images that look fantastic in ePub format on the Kobo reader and on the iPhone/iPad apps but horrible in native kobo format. It would take some work to compare the contents of the iPhone's sqlite database to that of the reader (and the DRM may prevent it).

It would surprise me a great deal if the data sent to the kobo is different than that sent to the iPhone app (it does not make sense to maintain three copies of the book (ePub, Kobo sqlite and iPhone sqlite)) so I suspect that there is a bug in the reader.

I do what others mentioned, simply download the ePub. I would like the issue resolved though...

Tim

[dos]

I think many people offered you an easy solution that you are ignoring.

If you check my OP you'll find that I'm well aware of the existence of the ePub format, and that I'm aware that it displays graphics while the native format does not.

Again "download the ePub, break the DRM, reformat it in calibre so it displays properly on the Kobo, and transfer it to the device" is indeed a fix. It's just not an elegant fix, and actually involves doing something legally grey-area. If the Kobo was a hobbyist piece of hardware this would be acceptable but the thing is intended for everyone to use. It shouldn't have such a major flaw in it's native format. ePubs are supplemental to the native format and are provided so that you "own" a copy of the book you bought in case kobo folds, or you get a different reader, etc.

I'm not posting here asking for technical help or a fix, I'm posting to make a big deal out of a problem with the native Kobo format, in hopes somebody at Kobo notices and decides it's important enough to fix. Why people here seem annoyed by this is something i don't understand, but i'm new to these forums. fierce loyalty to corporations is something i'm not used to seeing outside of Apple fan communities, and while I don't subscribe to that particular brand of insanity either, i've owned and played with some Apple stuff and can grudgingly admit that some of that adoration is warranted.

I'm posting about this because I want Kobo to be successful I really like using my Kobo, but in some cases it requires a lot of tinkering to get things working properly. This may be fine in Australia or some other countries where Kobo is the only game in town, but in North America we have a wide variety of readers to choose from and right now the Kobo is practically unknown here, while everyone knows what a Kindle or Nook or even a Sony Reader is. If the Kobo ecosystem can't be as intuitive and problem-free as those products it will fail.

Criticism is good, guys. If you have any problems with the Kobo hardware or software, speak up and let your voice be heard so Kobo realizes their consumers care about detail and improve their standards to match expectations. it just means a better experience for all of us.

[taming]

I'm posting to make a big deal out of a problem with the native Kobo format, in hopes somebody at Kobo notices and decides it's important enough to fix.

I've never done this, but the IT big gun at Kobo is a fellow named Dan Liebu. As far as I know, Kobo uses first initial, last name for its email addresses. you could try writing to dliebu@kobobooks.com and bring this up. Kobo employees do come to this forum from time to time, but I'm guessing that they are pretty busy just now--what with a new reader and update coming quickly.

People bring issues up here and get helpful responses without ticking people off all the time. Generally they are pleasant when they do this. It's a strategy that seems to work.

[timlegge]

Originally Posted by timlegge

Hi

My theory, regarding the sqlite database, is that it is used on the Kobo because the iPhone and iPad use sqlite as an app's data storage.

If that is the case and if the kobo format book is indeed the same in the database of the iPhone, iPad and Kobo reader then there is a bug in the reader.

I have several books that include graphics and images that look fantastic in ePub format on the Kobo reader and on the iPhone/iPad apps but horrible in native kobo format. It would take some work to compare the contents of the iPhone's sqlite database to that of the reader (and the DRM may prevent it).

It would surprise me a great deal if the data sent to the kobo is different than that sent to the iPhone app (it does not make sense to maintain three copies of the book (ePub, Kobo sqlite and iPhone sqlite)) so I suspect that there is a bug in the reader.

I do what others mentioned, simply download the ePub. I would like the issue resolved though...

Tim

I looked into it. The iPhone app actually uses encrypted epubs which explains the reason that the books look good there.

I also looked at the desktop app on Linux. It does not properly display the pages with graphics either. That may imply that the kobo format is not capable of displaying graphics...

There must be a reason that the kobo format exists...

Tim

[mamasue]

This may be fine in Australia or some other countries where Kobo is the only game in town

wrong!!!!

we have access to almost as many reader brands as you people do.

People bring issues up here and get helpful responses without ticking people off all the time. Generally they are pleasant when they do this. It's a strategy that seems to work.

they sure do - I am only one of many very grateful recipients of that help & support...AND in language which was aimed at my level of knowledge.

[dos]

Originally Posted by taming

People bring issues up here and get helpful responses without ticking people off all the time. Generally they are pleasant when they do this. It's a strategy that seems to work.

Really not sure what I did to tick anyone off, as far as I can tell I haven't insulted anyone personally, just voiced some criticism for a product. I guess because I'm new I don't know the etiquette here. How have I acted unpleasantly? Yeah I was harsh about a consumer product... but products don't have feelings.

I could E-Mail Kobo about this issue but I'm quite sure they're aware of the limitations of a product they designed.

I have to say this forum is really strange to me, most forums devoted to a piece of hardware or software that gets updated are full of people jumping over each other to point out every little detail that's wrong with the product, hoping their issue is the one that the most people care about. Check out the official PS3 forums for instance, those people love that machine but when something is wrong they're absolutely vicious. You don't really see many people saying "oh well it's okay, that can be excused because [excuse]", or "well there's this complicated workaround and you should just be happy with what you've got". And you know what? It's usually fixed in the very next firmware update.

Perhaps Kobo's customers should stop acting so whipped. It's kind of sad. I'm going to try to find another forum that's not as forgiving, I didn't anticipate this kind of reaction and should have lurked more.

It's up to the consumers to keep a company in line. It costs money to improve a product and a company operates by trying to spend as little as possible while at the same time trying to maximize profit. If they think everyone's cool with the status quo they will not expend their resources trying to fix problems.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by dos

Criticism is good, guys. If you have any problems with the Kobo hardware or software, speak up and let your voice be heard so Kobo realizes their consumers care about detail and improve their standards to match expectations. it just means a better experience for all of us.

Being a relative latecomer to Mobileread you might not yet see just how pro-active the Kobo forum here is.

Kobo reps do read and post here as well. so the message is getting through which reflects on just how helpful Kobo customer and technical support is.

[taming]

Well, dos, you just managed to be truly rude and insulting when you spoke about Australians and, from my perspective, you are now being insulting to everyone who posts here in almost every post you write. Folks on MR have terrific relationships with each other and with Kobo support. We have them because we have earned them by working collaboratively and treating each other (and Kobo) respectfully.

[taming]

Originally Posted by timlegge

There must be a reason that the kobo format exists...Tim

Tim, it is the Kobo format that is used for all the sync operations with mobile apps, the website, and soon the WiFi reader. My assumption has been that this proprietary DRM scheme is in place because they can't use ADE with them.

It's interesting that Sony has its new generation of readers still tied to the desktop and ADE. No WiFi--though they have touch. Sony is supposed to have some apps coming up, so they too will have to figure out how to make a non-ADE drm format correctly.

Does this make any kind of sense?

I'm really hoping that improving the Kobo sync formatting is one of the things they have been working on, but Kobo doesn't tell us much about their future plans. I can understand why they might not want to release this kind of information, but sheesh, inquiring minds definitely want to know

[dos]

Originally Posted by taming

Well, dos, you just managed to be truly rude and insulting when you spoke about Australians

Wait, what? I had heard that Kobo was one of the few readers really being marketed in Australia. How is that insulting at all?

[Zyzomys]

Originally Posted by dos

Again "download the ePub, break the DRM, reformat it in calibre so it displays properly on the Kobo, and transfer it to the device" is indeed a fix. It's just not an elegant fix, and actually involves doing something legally grey-area. [/i].

Did you read my post?

You can easily visit your Library on Kobo and download the book you purchased earlier, this time in ePub format to your Adobe Digital Reader and then transfer it to the Kobo. This is all perfectly legal and should not take you more than 5-minutes (in my experience this is probably faster than using the Kobo Desktop App to load books onto the Kobo).

Which part of that is difficult or illegal?

[dos]

Originally Posted by Zyzomys

Which part of that is difficult or illegal?

When I load an ePub into the Kobo from ADE the margins are very large and the text is in a column in the center of the screen. I have to go into Calibre and re-format it so it looks normal. To do this, I have to break the DRM.

Perhaps I have something in ADE mis-configured and this is causing the strange margin problems. I suspect, however that this is a problem with the way the Kobo reader handles the ePubs purchased on the Kobo store, as they display fine in ADE and the margin error only appears when loaded onto the reader.