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Old 01-19-2011, 04:07 PM   #46
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I too used to be able to recall information visually - if I couldn't remember an answer, I could ask where on the page it was, and I would be able to recall. I'm 54 now, and I can no longer do that, but probably because I no longer do that. I still read technical things on paper, with a highlighter and pencil to take notes. I could probably still recall that, if I needed to, but I haven't needed to for so long . . . But I read different kinds of books on my kindle. I have, since I was a little child, used different parts of my brain for information I had to retain, and information I did not have to retain. As I have gotten older, the information I do not have to retain pretty much gets dumped immediately. I have to look in Calibre to avoid buying a book a second time, even though I bought and read the first within the last year (exceptions for BIG books, like Stephen King). I agree with the article - if you do want to skim something, an ereader is much easier. For example, I hate most detailed discriptions of nature (I grew up on a farm, what can I say?). When the protaganist is looking at blue skis or an azur sunset, I can skip, and look for the next set of quotation marks.
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Old 01-20-2011, 01:23 PM   #47
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I don't buy this study for one moment. I would think that since it is easy on your eyes you would remember what you read even more so. No distractions and frustration of trying too hard to read the words.
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Old 01-20-2011, 01:50 PM   #48
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I don't think I've noticed any difference in the 'difficulty' of reading paper books and e-books. They are different reading experiences -- so far, I've only read leisure e-books on my Kindle, but I guess that if I were to read something academic on it, it would be certainly not the same. The article might have a point.
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Old 01-20-2011, 02:05 PM   #49
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I know I'm late to the game but some of the claims the article strikes me as patently absurd.

- It is no more or less difficult to read text on an ebook than on paper. So if ebooks are "bad," then paper books will be as well.
- Other studies have indicated that reading comprehension does not suffer based on ebook vs paper.
- The individual proposing the theory is a blogger, not a neurologist or researcher.
- At this time there's no evidence for his theory, namely that activating the dorsal stream increases reading comprehension and/or improves processing.
- Reading bad handwriting doesn't help you remember. (I certainly don't recall all the chicken-scratch of the prescriptions doctors have written for me. ) The act of writing something by hand helps reinforce recall and comprehension.

It shouldn't be a surprise that your brain recruits an additional region when reading difficult typography. But "more brain" != "better results."

Of course, he also goes into "larger anxieties" over the "sprawling influence of technology." Perhaps that made good copy in 1995, but by now that concept is a well-worn rut in journalistic writing. I'd go on, but that's more notice than such techno-babble punditry deserves.

Last edited by Kali Yuga; 01-20-2011 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 01-20-2011, 02:22 PM   #50
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And of course, the initial study in question is...

http://web.princeton.edu/sites/oppla...eimer_2010.pdf

It's loaded with caveats, by the way, including:
- The samples used were fairly short, e.g. 90s of reading and a multiple-choice test
- Novelty of a specific approach (e.g. using Comic Sans) will likely wear off after time
- They don't know yet how to quantify "disfluent" and "unintelligible"
- Some mechanisms may not work (e.g. small fonts)
- Other studies do not agree with the researchers, and it may well be material-dependent

However, there is one thing they propose, to which I for one would agree, namely the proposition that:

"the most effective disfluency manipulations would likely be those that are within the bounds of the normal variation of fonts and materials that could reasonably appear in a classroom."

I.e. putting a critical concept in italics or in a bolded font might help retain certain key concepts. Wow.



At any rate, while the study may one day bear fruit which does improve education, it certainly isn't strong enough to conclude that ereaders will somehow degrade comprehension because it's "too easy" to read them.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:53 PM   #51
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I learned how great books are at an early age when My Grandma read to be before I learned how to read for myself. I was the kid that set all the reading records.

After becoming a physically disabled adult with problems holding larger print and paper books I read in an electronic format for the first time On an old palm 3.5 os Palm VIIx with a whole 8mb of memory. The small device gave back to me the ability to read as much as I desired and it went everywhere with me.

Only drawback I have ever experienced with an ereading device is the great numbers of uninitiated that they they are just games. I retain every bit of what I read on my screen as I did from paper books.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:03 AM   #52
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The study is somewhat flawed from the get-go. As I have always known it to be human beings retain far more information when they read light coloured text on a dark background than when reading dark text on a light background. The study is comparing two means of reading that are based on something less than ideal.

This is why chalkboards (at least originally) were black with white chalk being used. They did studies with all different shades and colours of chalkboards and chalk with children of different ages. The studies showed that the children learned better and retained more information when reading light text on a dark background. Photo-recall I think is a way of circumventing the obstacle of reading with the colours reversed. Basically you are allowing yourself you stair at the writing (in your head) for as long as you need to in order to get the information. The only reason books continued to be printed in black ink on white paper is because they were cheaper to produce. Now we have done it for so long that e-readers have been based off of this design.

I have proven it for myself before. There was a time in the early days of the net where I would save documents from the internet locally and switch the colours around and those docs stayed in my head after just one reading far longer than ones shown in the standard black on white.

Text in a paperback is pretty much the same as text in e-ink. As someone already said it is just fear of change. It could also just be some group trying to make a name for themselves using scare tactics marketed as 'scientific research'.

Last edited by lenseman; 01-21-2011 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:00 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lenseman View Post
Text in a paperback is pretty much the same as text in e-ink.
I have to disagree with this (my daemon is forcing me!). Maybe it is just my super-vision Astigmatism correcting lenses or something but I am able to discern (without effort) a distinct and pronounced difference between your average Mass Market and an e-ink screen (even Pearl, and then the differences just get worse from there the more you climb the quality level in printed books).

Unless you meant "...pretty much the same as..." as in "Sharp cheddar is pretty much the same as Swiss" in which case I could agree with you (because it reverses the normal understanding of the phrase! Neat!).

As great as the Sony screens are and as great as e-ink is in general it still has a pretty good way to go. Which is awesome for them, because it will necessitate further purchases by us as the technology progresses. Yay! Save your pennies now. (I personally look forward to future e-reading devices even though I like the ones now).

Last edited by Anthem; 01-21-2011 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:33 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by lenseman View Post
The study is somewhat flawed from the get-go....
Actually, I don't think it's that the study is necessarily flawed, though it's far from conclusive. It's that a) it is preliminary, b) it's limited in scope, and c) a Wired blogger is essentially using it to jump to an unjustifiable conclusion.

(The study didn't discuss ebooks at all, by the way.)

I.e. the real issue should be less with the study, and more with how a blogger has interpreted the results.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lenseman
The only reason books continued to be printed in black ink on white paper is because they were cheaper to produce. Now we have done it for so long that e-readers have been based off of this design....
Sort of, although I believe many ereader apps offer a "black background, white text" option.

I'd expect that if studies can prove that inverting text colors offers a benefit, you'll see more of it.

I also have my doubts that chalkboards started out dark is because of legibility. I'd assume it's a material limitation, i.e. there weren't any viable alternatives 100+ years ago -- any studies must have taken place long after chalkboards were in use. Also, AFAIK many classrooms now use whiteboards instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lenseman
I have proven it for myself before.
That's nice, but this sort of anecdotal evidence doesn't really prove anything.

You didn't use any sort of testing method, you didn't test other people, you don't have any sort of rigorous protocols, there doesn't seem to be any way to isolate one factor from another (including the novelty of inverting the text), and clearly there's no way for any of us to test the veracity of your claims.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lenseman
As someone already said it is just fear of change. It could also just be some group trying to make a name for themselves using scare tactics marketed as 'scientific research'.
The blogger is probably indulging in a bit of "boo scary" to justify his own trepidations about ebooks. The actual study, however, is not.

The researchers primarily suggest that a judicious use of difficult (disfluent) text might be a low-cost way to improve reading comprehension. Their conclusion has nothing to do with ebooks, really.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:22 PM   #55
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So because Mr. Lehrer with his indepth knowledge of neuroscience (presumably from his degree from Columbia in journalism or science; his bio on Wired is rather terse) summarized findings from a real neuroscientist -- without footnoting the study -- and uses those findings to draw his own conclusions, this becomes truth as published by The Telegraph.

The author of the article in The Telegraph uses Mr. Lehrer's flawed thinking, citing a barely related study from Princeton -- also not footnoted for our reference -- and fits those findings as did Mr. Lehrer in his article for Wired to draw his own semi-sensationalist conclusions that paper and ink is superior to retention than are e-readers.

Puh-lease! This flawed methodology drives me crazy. Neither of the "journalists" are experts, and their homework appears shoddy. The one neuroscientist's study and the Princeton study which are presumably reputable, properly conducted studies have NOTHING to do with books vs. e-readers. The only scientific conclusions drawn are that people may retain more information when they are forced to read in different fonts. In no way does anyone except the respective writers conclude that paper and ink is superior to e-ink.

All of my medical reference books and professional journals are printed at higher resolution in black ink in familiar fonts on white paper. The same goes for all of the paperback novels I used to buy. Now that 100% of the novels I read and some of my reference books are on my phone, Kindle 3 and Nook Color only means that they are more readily available than on my bookshelf. I retain and enjoy just as much on my e-readers as I did with a physical book.

And to the posters here with anecdotal evidence of how they "know" that books are better than e-readers for retention: glad it works for you. It ain't scientific evidence, but rather your personal preference. By the way, it's my personal preference stated in the above paragraph as well.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:01 PM   #56
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Seems like the problem with the article isn't the research, which makes no mention of ereaders so far as I can tell, but the author's assumption that ereaders are easier to read than paper books. Given the differences in font, text size and material quality between different books, I don't see how that claim makes sense.

Easier to read than a 60 year old yellowed mass market paperback? Sure. A quality new hardcover or even trade paperback? I'm skeptical.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:33 PM   #57
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Seems like the problem with the article isn't the research, which makes no mention of ereaders so far as I can tell, but the author's assumption that ereaders are easier to read than paper books.
I wonder if the pain my Kobo causes for my hands will result in better retention? It is definitely harder to read on it than with most any book.

(Get it? Harder? Hard plastic! In actuality, the Kobo really does hurt my hands.)
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:19 PM   #58
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I wonder if the pain my Kobo causes for my hands will result in better retention? It is definitely harder to read on it than with most any book.

(Get it? Harder? Hard plastic! In actuality, the Kobo really does hurt my hands.)

Glue a bunch of thumbtacks to it and you'll be a wealth of information in no time.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:41 AM   #59
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Glue a bunch of thumbtacks to it and you'll be a wealth of information in no time.
OtterBooks, we are really on to something here!
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