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View Poll Results: How do you feel about DRM?
DRM doesn't bother me. As long as I can read a book on a computer I don't care. 18 6.41%
DRM is evil and should be done away with entirely. 200 71.17%
Quit whining about DRM, it's a dead horse. 13 4.63%
If DRM were a dead horse, DRM would be dead. 9 3.20%
DRM is a useful tool that prevents piracy. 4 1.42%
Some other option not thought of for this poll 37 13.17%
Voters: 281. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-13-2012, 05:00 AM   #121
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Well, maybe, for a while, until that teenager decides that she *wants* to email copies of the latest Twilight book to all her Facebook friends. At that point, she, or any "technologically unsophisticated consumer" is only a technologically sophisticated friend and brief tutorial away from removing DRM at a click.
It's also easy to shoplift from Walmart, and shoplifting tutorials are also just a Google search away
LINK

Yet we don't excoriate Walmart for utilizing anti-theft measures and don't insist that they give up on the idea of law enforcement, stop "victimizing" paying customers with their security cameras and their hard to open packages, and focus purely on better service.
I imagine , if you suggested such a strategy to a Walmart executive, they would explain to you that :

1. Their anti-theft measures pay for themselves in saved sales.
2.Their myriad paying customers show that they already do a great job of customer service.

Publishers would make the same arguments to the anti DRM crowd.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:03 AM   #122
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There are many people for whom DRM removal is not easy or trivial, even after reading that famous blog.

The point is, people shouldn't have to whisper in hushed tones, to do a Google Search for Apprentice Alf, after they have bought a book, to be able to keep said bought book for themselves.

That is why DRM is evil to me. That is why I will borrow a DRM laden book from the library, and then buy the physical copy for unlimited freedom and actual, honest to goodness ownership.

I consider DRM laden books to be nothing but "previews" of real books as it stands at this point.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:17 AM   #123
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DRM is inconvenient, and annoys innocent paying customers.
It also is effective in accomplishing what the publishers want, which is preventing casual sharing by people with no tech skills who would otherwise see nothing wrong with it.

I've seen this in conversations with co-workers, one was discussing a book he had just finished, and said (almost verbatim) "I'd lend it to you, but the Kindle doesn't let me"[0]. With no DRM, he would have passed the file on, and seen nothing wrong with it, he would have done the same if it was a physical book.

The purpose of DRM is to make it obvious that you are not meant to take a certain step, and that you have to do something of at best questionable legality to do so. That will stop the majority of casual users from doing it. Not because they can't, but because they choose not to, because they think it is wrong.

In the same way, anti-copy CDs worked, anti-copy DVDs worked, and copy-protection on video games worked. Not because they are fool-proof, they aren't. Not because they stop the content being immediately available on torrents, they don't. But because most people won't voluntarily break the law. DRM means that they have to take an active step to copy the content, one that most people cannot rationalise away, and so will not take that step.

It isn't a technical barrier, it is a moral one.

[0]: Kindle lending is only enabled in the US, and only one time anyway.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:20 AM   #124
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stop "victimizing" paying customers with their security cameras and their hard to open packages, and focus purely on better service.
That's an entirely different thing. If I buy something, when I get it home it's not illegal for me to open the packaging and utilize the contents as I see fit.

A store having security measures to protect as-yet UNbought merchandise is perfectly reasonable.

It's different than buying something, going home and even after you've bought it, it still won't come out of the box.

That is what DRM does to paying customers. It treats them like thieves even after they've said "hey I am not a thief. Here is my cash or credit card number!"

Even sites which sell DRM-free books have "in-store" measures against the downloading of such prior to when the paypal or credit transaction has been received.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:53 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by spindlegirl View Post
There are many people for whom DRM removal is not easy or trivial, even after reading that famous blog.

The point is, people shouldn't have to whisper in hushed tones, to do a Google Search for Apprentice Alf, after they have bought a book, to be able to keep said bought book for themselves.

That is why DRM is evil to me. That is why I will borrow a DRM laden book from the library, and then buy the physical copy for unlimited freedom and actual, honest to goodness ownership.

I consider DRM laden books to be nothing but "previews" of real books as it stands at this point.
Yet most e/book customers disagree with you. Ever wonder why that is?

One of the interesting things about the anti DRM crusade is that there is an abundance of DRM free product available on the Internet. Indeed , it is available even in the biggest online stores, side by side with the "DRM infested" , agency priced, Big Six product. So why did the Big Six publishers have a great year selling ebooks last year? Why aren't paying customers flocking to Smashwords, where its all DRM free, all the time, and at low, low prices too? Why are the anti DRMIsts haranguing the Big Six publishers to give up DRM, instead of just blithely ignoring their offerings? IN a word; value.
Publishers-and the authors that they discover, develop, and distribute-create products that have value to the book buying public. They charge a pretty penny for those products and the public pays it, because they know a Steven King , John Scalzi, or James Patterson will deliver great entertainment value, whereas the average Smashwords author will not.
Now the authors who create such value deserve having their creations protected, which is where copyright and copyright protection tools like DRM comes in.
If their IP is not protected, well those authors will go somewhere else, where the value that they create will be protected.
Oh, and that library borrowing? You can't borrow a book from the library if the author doesn't write the book, because he can't make a living writing.
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:11 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by spindlegirl View Post
That's an entirely different thing. If I buy something, when I get it home it's not illegal for me to open the packaging and utilize the contents as I see fit.

A store having security measures to protect as-yet UNbought merchandise is perfectly reasonable.

It's different than buying something, going home and even after you've bought it, it still won't come out of the box.

That is what DRM does to paying customers. It treats them like thieves even after they've said "hey I am not a thief. Here is my cash or credit card number!"

Even sites which sell DRM-free books have "in-store" measures against the downloading of such prior to when the paypal or credit transaction has been received.
Aha, this is a common argument. As I've been told many times, copyright infringement is not theft. But it is a form of property offense: an offense that can only occur AFTER you have acquired the property.
I can legally buy an ebook without committing theft: but then I can strip the DRM , post it on my pirate web site, or distribute it to all my Twitter followers. That's copyright infringement.
Copyright infringement measures, by their very nature , can only work (if they work at all) AFTER you have acquired the item.
If you follow your argument (" I bought it, I should be able to do anything I want with it" ) to its logical conclusion, the notion of copyright itself would be illegitimate. ( A poster named Giggleton argues precisely this ).
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:12 AM   #127
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DRM is inconvenient, and annoys innocent paying customers.
It also is effective in accomplishing what the publishers want, which is preventing casual sharing by people with no tech skills who would otherwise see nothing wrong with it.

I've seen this in conversations with co-workers, one was discussing a book he had just finished, and said (almost verbatim) "I'd lend it to you, but the Kindle doesn't let me"[0]. With no DRM, he would have passed the file on, and seen nothing wrong with it, he would have done the same if it was a physical book.

The purpose of DRM is to make it obvious that you are not meant to take a certain step, and that you have to do something of at best questionable legality to do so. That will stop the majority of casual users from doing it. Not because they can't, but because they choose not to, because they think it is wrong.

In the same way, anti-copy CDs worked, anti-copy DVDs worked, and copy-protection on video games worked. Not because they are fool-proof, they aren't. Not because they stop the content being immediately available on torrents, they don't. But because most people won't voluntarily break the law. DRM means that they have to take an active step to copy the content, one that most people cannot rationalise away, and so will not take that step.

It isn't a technical barrier, it is a moral one.

[0]: Kindle lending is only enabled in the US, and only one time anyway.
Cosign.
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:25 AM   #128
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Yet most e/book customers disagree with you. Ever wonder why that is?
No.

I don't base my personal opinions on who agrees or disagrees with me. I'm getting too old for that. Its a waste of time, actually.

But now that you've asked me to ponder this, I thought a few posts up hating DRM was the popular opinion...

Quote:

Why aren't paying customers flocking to Smashwords, where its all DRM free, all the time, and at low, low prices too?
The Mill River Recluse, by Darcie Chan, is one I personally paid 99c for and it is apparently doing really well in the sales. I bought it from Smashwords ages ago. I'm currently reading it and finding the story quite good.

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Oh, and that library borrowing? You can't borrow a book from the library if the author doesn't write the book, because he can't make a living writing.
I've borrowed printed books all my life. Some have resulted in a sale from me, and some have not. That's the whole point of libraries, regardless of the format. To find out if the book that everyone is raving about is all that and a bag of chips.

Authors make a living writing. They write stuff, people read it, and the people who are hooked end up buying it. The people who didn't like their books after having read them wouldn't have bought them.

That's the value of an author. I consider some authors so valuable that even if I don't NEED to buy a book to read it (I can borrow and re-borrow books multiple times from the library) I still do, willingly buy.

There is one book that I ended up buying for my personal bookshelf last year even after I had spent ten years borrowing it from the library repeatedly. (The Robber Bride by Margaret Atwood for those curious) but I bought the printed book, not the digital one, and I never will buy the digital one.

If an author writes stuff that is popular enough to be permanently wanted, library borrowing will not only not phase said author, it will appeal to said author.
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:36 AM   #129
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Aha, this is a common argument. As I've been told many times, copyright infringement is not theft. But it is a form of property offense: an offense that can only occur AFTER you have acquired the property.
I can legally buy an ebook without committing theft: but then I can strip the DRM , post it on my pirate web site, or distribute it to all my Twitter followers. That's copyright infringement.
Copyright infringement measures, by their very nature , can only work (if they work at all) AFTER you have acquired the item.
If you follow your argument (" I bought it, I should be able to do anything I want with it" ) to its logical conclusion, the notion of copyright itself would be illegitimate. ( A poster named Giggleton argues precisely this ).
Being able to have unlimited personal (personal being defined as me, myself) use of bought material isn't a bad thing. If you do a search in the forums you will find the same sentiment expressed by not only Giggleton and me, but by many posters here.

At present I only have one e-reader. If something happens to my T1 e-reader (say it gets smashed to smithereens on pavement) and some well meaning person happens to buy me a sympathy gift of a Kindle, any DRM materials are no not legally transferable to my now new Kindle.

The only things I could convert and put on my new Kindle would be the DRM free books I've bought or downloaded from MR and PG. My legally bought DRM materials would still be unreachable by me, the person who would have bought them.

However, if some vandal breaks into my house and trashes my bookshelf, I can still take my copy of "The Outlander" off my pile of rubble and read it until I get a new bookshelf.

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Old 02-13-2012, 06:56 AM   #130
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I've borrowed printed books all my life. Some have resulted in a sale from me, and some have not. That's the whole point of libraries, regardless of the format. To find out if the book that everyone is raving about is all that and a bag of chips.
That printed book got to the library , because the government paid the publisher, who paid the author.The author doesn't get paid, there would be no book.

Quote:
Authors make a living writing. They write stuff, people read it, and the people who are hooked end up buying it. The people who didn't like their books after having read them wouldn't have bought them.

That's the value of an author. I consider some authors so valuable that even if I don't NEED to buy a book to read it (I can borrow and re-borrow books multiple times from the library) I still do, willingly buy.
Ah, but authors don't make a living writing- they make a living SELLING what they write. And they can only do so because of legally enforceable copyright. Take that away,stop enforcing copyright, and authors cant make a living writing anymore.Eventually, that will mean no new books( including no new library books).
One of the problems with this discussion is that its easy to see the present inconvenience of DRM and difficult to see the future inconvenience of fewer and lower quality books.Its what I call the passenger pigeon problem- passenger pigeon hunters resisted any hunting restrictions because they could never imagine that the abundant passenger pigeon could become extinct- right up until the year when the passenger pigeon flocks didn't come back.

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Old 02-13-2012, 07:09 AM   #131
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Ah, but authors don't make a living writing- they make a living SELLING what they write. And they can only do so because of legally enforceable copyright.
I am cool with authors having copyright, many people are. The fact that I will still borrow e-books and yet BUY printed books shows that I too, am cool with authors having copyright.

My beef with DRM for books that I buy is entirely about personal use. Entirely. I have this weird sense of entitlement that if I buy a book, I should be able to keep it. So I buy the printed book.

Seems the authors don't have issues with me keeping the printed one even if my bookshelf gets vandalized. So I buy the item that gives me the most personal freedom and permanence of use. So far, DRM infested books don't fit that bill for me. Too many restrictions and legal loopholes for me.

I can understand authors and publishers not wanting books to be pirated, honestly I do. But holding paying customers hostage because of it isn't gonna work. Most people don't have "a pirate site". Most people just want to buy their book and keep the darned thing.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:09 AM   #132
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My mother wanted to buy a book a few months ago. She was stopped to do so by the site that said you had to install all those applications before you could even download the book.

I ended up buying that book for her, removed the DRM, and sent my mother the electronic copy. Had my mother only my brother to turn to, she wouldn't have bought that book.

That is what DRM does. Stopping people from spending money, because they are afraid they won't be able to read the book after they've paid for it. DRM = Don't Read Me.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:22 AM   #133
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My mother wanted to buy a book a few months ago. She was stopped to do so by the site that said you had to install all those applications before you could even download the book.

I ended up buying that book for her, removed the DRM, and sent my mother the electronic copy. Had my mother only my brother to turn to, she wouldn't have bought that book.

That is what DRM does. Stopping people from spending money, because they are afraid they won't be able to read the book after they've paid for it. DRM = Don't Read Me.
I bought a DRM book from a website not knowing that the book had DRM. (it was marked as regular epub and not the adobe epub) After I downloaded the file and saw the .ascm attachment, I freaked because it was expensive (it's a reference book) and I tried everything to get it onto my e-reader and could not. This site could not refund my money because their records showed that my download was successful and when a download is successful the seller is instantly billed their share of the cost.

Fair enough. I actually had downloaded it and it's reasonable that, to the seller, that means I actually HAD the book. Anyone could claim their book didn't work and then get an expensive book free in that case. So I understood entirely not getting refunded.

I was stuck for WEEKS with this book that I had bought yet could not read or use. I eventually was able to transfer it to my e-reader using a wine program to put it on ADE and then drag the book into my e-reader via USB. And it was only by a fluke that I discovered that. Were it not for my digging around for "how to", and hard work on my part, I'd still be really sad that the money I had paid for was lost forever with nothing to show.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:58 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
I can legally buy an ebook without committing theft: but then I can strip the DRM , post it on my pirate web site, or distribute it to all my Twitter followers.
I meant to comment specifically on this. There are lots of DRM-free books that I have bought. Yet I have not distributed a single one to any "twitter follower", or pirate site. I've kept it to my lone little "entitled" self. Somehow the lack of DRM on my book has not caused me to go "arr mateys, heres a book."

Perhaps it could be the fact that I bought the book, (and I even paid for a $7 Smashwords book that a friend authored that is popular in children's Canadian schools, EVEN though I own and was given a paperback copy) and just want to spend my money on myself and respecting the "do not distribute this work to people" notice on the front of it that makes me not eager to go out and propagate it?

What other people choose to do with stuff THEY buy has zero bearing on what I personally choose.

The lack of DRM in said books, have however, caused me to do a happy dance of a different nature. It means I get to still have the book even if my T1 fatally meets with the wheels of a moving bus. (Not that such things exist in Halifax at the moment, but I digress).

People who don't distribute stuff on websites don't make the news though. People who buy stuff that they can even legally continue to read for free (like me with libraries), don't make headline news. The reason? It would be as newsworthy as some reporter coming to my house to proclaim that I ate breakfast this morning. Who cares?
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:07 AM   #135
murraypaul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlegirl View Post
I was stuck for WEEKS with this book that I had bought yet could not read or use. I eventually was able to transfer it to my e-reader using a wine program to put it on ADE and then drag the book into my e-reader via USB. And it was only by a fluke that I discovered that. Were it not for my digging around for "how to", and hard work on my part, I'd still be really sad that the money I had paid for was lost forever with nothing to show.
But, to be fair, this (and the previous post) is a complaint about bad DRM systems, which the Adept/ADE combo is. If the DRM had been completely transparent, and the book just magically appeared on your Kindle/iThing, you probably wouldn't have had have such a strong response.
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