Classic The nook is bad for eBooks

[Madam Broshkina]

Originally Posted by All4Fun

So what makes the Nook so bad again?

At first I was not that impressed with the nook but after using it a while I like it a lot now. My biggest issue is with side loaded content. You have no way to sort your books, or search for a specific book like you can do with books bought from B&N. If you have a large collection this can be a hassle. This could be easily fixed by a firmware upgrade I would bet. I also think that the Sony ePub files look better on the nook then on the Sony.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Madam Broshkina

I can read the new Sony ePub books on my nook without having to remove the DRM. ePub books from B&N will not work on the Sony however.

Thanks. I thought that had been confirmed, but my Alzheimer's you know...

[jasonkchapman]

Originally Posted by Madam Broshkina

At first I was not that impressed with the nook but after using it a while I like it a lot now. My biggest issue is with side loaded content. You have no way to sort your books, or search for a specific book like you can do with books bought from B&N. If you have a large collection this can be a hassle. This could be easily fixed by a firmware upgrade I would bet. I also think that the Sony ePub files look better on the nook then on the Sony.

This may be because B&N is looking ahead to the time when the majority of the e-books are using the same DRM/ePub version and are interchangeable. Without vendor lock-in, the retailers with their own devices are going to have to make it more enticing to buy from their own store than from someone else's. It's ham-handed, because I think the wireless and the ease of purchasing is enough to do that, but it makes sense to give preference to their own goods.

Hopefully, once the initial push is over, they'll see the light and fix it, but I wouldn't buy a nook expecting the issue to be addressed.

[nikkie]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Yes there is. No SDK until sometime 2010 and even then, we don't know how long it would take to implement.

2010 is 14 days away. The library has already been created - that's what B&N was doing, making the new version of the RMSDK. This entire thread is a red herring. The next version of the ADE DRM will be B&N's, and it is far superior to the old one.

We should be thanking B&N for working with Adobe to develop a better method of DRM that supports social features like LendMe, not condemning them for it.

The fact that the Sony and other devices use an older version of the SDK is not that big of a deal. It's not like re-consuming the updates will break the back of their developers or anything. Besides that, Adobe will force Sony and other manufacturers to upgrade - see what they did in the move from CS3 to CS4?

Sheesh.

[Paul58]

It would seem to me that the booksellers are the ones that are hurting themselves... If a Kindle can only read aan ebook from Amazon and the Sony can only read an ebook from Sony, and a Sony can read an ebook from B&N or Amazon, etc, etc, they are only losing sales! If I could shop any ebook retailer and read any ebook any any reader, I would be purchasing from many booksellers. B&N seems to habe one of the largest selections of ebooks currently available, so it sure doesn't make sense for them to limit their consumer base to those folks wit a B&N Nook! If I were B&N, I would want all the ereader owners (including Kindle and Sony) to purchase from my store! Then again, maybe I'm mission the whole point of this post...

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Trubu

Someone who's smart enough to figure out that a sample is in epub is probably also smart enough to double-check that their device is supported before they buy the full book. And aren't the samples wrapped in the same DRM anyway?

Sorry, I just don't see the issue. Yeah, it might be annoying to people who own older devices that they won't have access to the B&N catalog while nook owners can pick and choose from a variety of stores - but they didn't have access to the B&N catalog before, so what are they really out? I really don't buy the scenario that this is going to lead to mass confusion.

Going forward, B&N switching to epub will be a good thing - the more sellers who standardize on epub, the better.

The samples in ePub do not have DRM. So they do with in ADE or on any reader with ADE. Because the fact that the DRM is different is not told to the public for the listing of the eBooks means that there will be people buying ePub from B&N only to find out they cannot use it. They will think either the eBook is broken or ADE is broken.

Because B&N is not as forthcoming as the should be, this will be a problem. The DRM B&N uses only works on a nook. And yes, this will lead to mass confusion. And if other eBook shops take on this new DRM in place of the current DRM before the reader you have supports it, you are screwed.

I am talking about the regular person who does not strip DRM. And yes, it will be a problem sometime down the road.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Ema

Buying the nook does not mean supporting DRM; buying the DRM'ed content will mean supporting DRM. Buy the nook if you want it, but don't buy the DRM'ed books.

Buying a nook does indeed mean supporting B&N's new DRM on ePub. A DRM that will eventually lead to confusion and some people buying ePub that cannot use.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by All4Fun

To summarize what I'm understanding: The Nook in itself as an ebook reader is not the problem and can read non-DRM ePubs. The issue seems to be the new ePub social DRM scheme being introduced by B&N which is similar in functionality to the DRM placed on eReader formats but can be confused with the current ADE ePub scheme used by Sony and others.

Buy the Nook if you want. If you don't like DRM, buy your ebooks from sources that sell DRM-free ebooks or that you can "liberate" the DRM from.

But if everyone told B&N that they would not buy a nook as long as the ePub sold by B&N has this new DRM, B&N would soon change to the current DRM and be done with this new DRM. Before this new DRM for ePub, all eBooks either had DRM or didn't have DRM. And if they had DRM, we know what DRM it had. .epub meant it had DRM or not. And if it had DRM, we know what DRM it had. B&N is selling ePub with this new DRM and not telling the customers. So you think it's got the original DRM, buy the eBook and find it doesn't work in ADE. It's not going to get better unless B&N put the information on their website along with the book's listing.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by nikkie

2010 is 14 days away. The library has already been created - that's what B&N was doing, making the new version of the RMSDK. This entire thread is a red herring. The next version of the ADE DRM will be B&N's, and it is far superior to the old one.

We should be thanking B&N for working with Adobe to develop a better method of DRM that supports social features like LendMe, not condemning them for it.

The fact that the Sony and other devices use an older version of the SDK is not that big of a deal. It's not like re-consuming the updates will break the back of their developers or anything. Besides that, Adobe will force Sony and other manufacturers to upgrade - see what they did in the move from CS3 to CS4?

Sheesh.

And in the move from CS3 to CS4, a lot of people lost access to their eBooks.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Paul58

It would seem to me that the booksellers are the ones that are hurting themselves... If a Kindle can only read aan ebook from Amazon and the Sony can only read an ebook from Sony, and a Sony can read an ebook from B&N or Amazon, etc, etc, they are only losing sales! If I could shop any ebook retailer and read any ebook any any reader, I would be purchasing from many booksellers. B&N seems to habe one of the largest selections of ebooks currently available, so it sure doesn't make sense for them to limit their consumer base to those folks wit a B&N Nook! If I were B&N, I would want all the ereader owners (including Kindle and Sony) to purchase from my store! Then again, maybe I'm mission the whole point of this post...

The point of the post is that we had a nice system in place. We had an emerging standard with a single DRM. All devices that had ADE on it were able to display ePub. You could buy ePub from any shop that sold it. Now we have B&N selling ePub without telling us they are selling ePub and without telling us the ePub they aren't telling us about have a different DRM. If you download a sample and find it's ePub, there is no information in that book's listing to say the DRM is different. So you buy it and the ePub you just bought may do you no good unless you have a nook.

Also, if you have a reader now that has ADE and you then buy a nook for a gift for say your spouse, you cannot use any of the eBooks your spouse buys for the nook. Interoperability has been taken away. The ability to share your spouse's eBooks has just been taken away from you.

[Ema]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Buying a nook does indeed mean supporting B&N's new DRM on ePub. A DRM that will eventually lead to confusion and some people buying ePub that cannot use.

Since the nook can read formats that do not have DRM, this is exactly how I intend to use it. I have never bought a DRM book in my life nor do I ever intend to. Every e-book I have that does have DRM is borrowed for free from the library. As you can see, I can happily use a nook and not support DRM. The nook isn't the problem, the content purchased is.

[sunebird]

I have been mislead. I have a Sony Reader. My fault for not doing my research. I downloaded a sample from B&N and it opened up no problem on the Sony Reader. So I bought a book and tried opening and I got the DRM message on the Sony Reader. B&N should warn people before they check out that even though the book is epub, It will not work on the Sony Reader. B&N refuses to refund my money, nor take away the DRM. I have legally purchased this book, so I should have the right to read it on the device of my choice.

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by sunebird

I have legally purchased this book, so I should have the right to read it on the device of my choice.

Fortunately, i♥cabbages reports that B&N EPUB DRM is done. So very soon you should be able to read your ebook on your Sony. In the US you probably do have the right to do this, although i♥cabbages could still get in trouble for giving you the tools to strip DRM.

[nikkie]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But if everyone told B&N that they would not buy a nook as long as the ePub sold by B&N has this new DRM, B&N would soon change to the current DRM and be done with this new DRM. Before this new DRM for ePub, all eBooks either had DRM or didn't have DRM. And if they had DRM, we know what DRM it had. .epub meant it had DRM or not. And if it had DRM, we know what DRM it had. B&N is selling ePub with this new DRM and not telling the customers. So you think it's got the original DRM, buy the eBook and find it doesn't work in ADE. It's not going to get better unless B&N put the information on their website along with the book's listing.

XXXBooks purchased from B&N with DRM have the pdb extension, not the epub extension. XXX Edit: this is wrong, B&N is still selling books with both DRM formats. Irritating!

I think the DRM situation is well-worth complaining against, but I feel like you picked the wrong target. It's not the fact that B&N developed a new DRM that is the problem, it's that B&N is using DRM at all. DRM will have to change over time, that's a given so long as we have hackers who can and will (and, in my not-so-humble-opinion, should) crack it...

I detest that the DRM isn't currently inoperable, but I think that it will be soon as it is in the best interest of Sony and B&N if they want to compete with Amazon's larger libary. And Sony has shown that they are willing to let anyone who has downloaded books in their formats re-download them in the new formats, so *that's* not a problem. They have also offered firmware updates or hardware updates to those with incompatible versions. As well I have been able to download new copies of books from B&N that I had previously downloaded in a different format. What B&N will do in the future is yet to be seen, what iRex did pissed everybody off, and what Amazon does is to screw everyone by pretending this debate doesn't exist and that no one has any right to view their books on different devices.

My point is that this problem isn't unique to the nook, and is being handled no worse by B&N, so condemning them doesn't seem particularly reasonable.

You may have assumed that that you would be able to read B&N books on other hardware, but they never gave that impression nor said it explicitly. If you bought their device for a family member thinking files would be compatible with a sony, that is unfortunate, but, you know what happens when you assume...

In any case, can we try and pick the right target of our vitriol? It's obviously the fact that DRM exists at all that causes this problem, not just the fact that DRM changes over time.

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by nikkie

Books purchased from B&N with DRM have the pdb extension, not the epub extension.

Not quite accurate... pdb is the old eReader format (Which uses the Palm DB format, hence pdb as the extension). B&N is still selling in both formats right now, so you will get a mish-mash of both buying from them right now.

Both pdb and epub from B&N will come with the eReader DRM (e-mail/CC authorization), minus any DRM-free content.