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Old 06-26-2014, 09:07 AM   #16
crossi
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If the POD clause is true then the publishers could also allow small bookstores to do the same. The small bookstores could then have an effective inventory as large as that as the big retailers. Any book the customer wanted could be printed right there. Wouldn't this negate some of Amazon advantage of it's large warehouses?
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:05 AM   #17
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Problems w/ POD:

- requires that the source files be available and print-ready, complying w/ a very narrow set of file requirements (margins are an especial bugaboo) --- not a big deal for a novel, but a deal breaker for glossy books, and a serious potential security issue
- unable to support special effects such as embossing, die cuts, foil, varnish, &c.
- binding is lowest-common-denominator adhesive

So, any customer that wants to get out of such need merely design their books (and files) so that they require printing features which Amazon's print-on-demand can't meet.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:24 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze View Post
It seems to me that this issue involves a question that FJTorres and I discussed on another thread at some point, which is whether it is always permissible for a powerful negotiator to pressure a party without leverage (which might not even be true in this case) to sign a contract that turns out to be unfair. Studying the history of recording rights in the North American music industry amounts to a course on that subject. One lesson it teaches is that certain things which producers and labels asked for from the '60s to the '80s were deemed to be a priori unfair. I think we'd have to know more about the publishers that are complaining today to know whether or not that lesson applies.
You can compare the largest Hachette author's income to the income of Hachette and ask the same question. Is it possible for them to sign a fair contract with any of author's? One thing I believe is certain is that those author's have more power today then they had 5 years ago and a lot of that is Amazon giving them other options, even if they don't choose it.

Companies make unreasonable demands in contract negotiations. It's being portrayed as only Amazon making unreasonable demands and I don't believe that. It could just as easily have played out that Hachette will not accept anything except an agency model so Amazon is saying "ok if that's what you want then you'll have to pay us for the value add that we're providing above and beyond your other 'agents'". I'm not going to make a decision on who is more evil in this case without knowing all the facts, and all the facts aren't available.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:33 AM   #19
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I'm not going to make a decision on who is more evil in this case without knowing all the facts, and all the facts aren't available.
Neither side is being "evil" - to even use that word is rather silly, IMHO. Both sides are simply trying to achieve an outcome that's best for their business.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:42 AM   #20
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Neither side is being "evil" - to even use that word is rather silly, IMHO. Both sides are simply trying to achieve an outcome that's best for their business.
This.


All major retailers have agreements with wholesalers limiting their ability to sell to other retailers at a lower cost. They also have agreements preventing the wholesaler from selling the items to the general public for less than the retailers.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:46 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by WillAdams View Post
Problems w/ POD:

- requires that the source files be available and print-ready, complying w/ a very narrow set of file requirements (margins are an especial bugaboo) --- not a big deal for a novel, but a deal breaker for glossy books, and a serious potential security issue
- unable to support special effects such as embossing, die cuts, foil, varnish, &c.
- binding is lowest-common-denominator adhesive

So, any customer that wants to get out of such need merely design their books (and files) so that they require printing features which Amazon's print-on-demand can't meet.

I agree. POD can be a great option, but forcing POD on all books could hurt reputation and value or drag all books down to those LCDs.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:50 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Neither side is being "evil" - to even use that word is rather silly, IMHO. Both sides are simply trying to achieve an outcome that's best for their business.
I think we all understand that "evil" in these contexts usually means doing what's best for short term profits at the expense of what's best for the long term health of the business, or the industry, or the customer, or society.
At least that's how I use it, and find it be a useful and concise bit of hyperbole.
Downright pithy.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:53 AM   #23
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Amazon have always had the "you can't sell it more cheaply elsewhere" condition, to the best of my knowledge. They certainly do for self-published books.
Are you sure? Not just for select?

I don't recall seeing that in my KDP info. That would mean I couldn't offer a Smashwords coupon or other promotion. I'll have to double check.
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Old 06-26-2014, 11:00 AM   #24
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Neither side is being "evil" - to even use that word is rather silly, IMHO. Both sides are simply trying to achieve an outcome that's best for their business.
And they are still negotiating, trading terms back and forth.
Until the dickering stops and we see what they end up with we can't even begin to tell if anything bad is going on.

But the ADS camp acts as if Amazon were automatically in the wrong just for asking for something. As if they should be happy to take whatever scraps the publisher deems appropriate. BOGU negotiations? Not Amazon. Unlike authors tied to tradpub contracts, they don't have to grin and bear it.
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Old 06-26-2014, 11:04 AM   #25
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Baen, too.
Probably most other (non-BPH?) publishers.

It's insurance against a publisher favoring another retailer with better terms to harm them. (Like, really, have they ever conspired to do such a thing?)

It could simply be that the BPHs are no longer important enough to be given special terms or maybe it is just a negotiation stance.

In standard negotiations you ask for the moon and stars and let the other guy make a counter offer. It might be that the BPHs have become so used to "take it or leave it" contract negotiations they no longer understand what it is like to negotiate fairly or, worse for them, from a position of weakness.
It is also insurance against direct sales undercutting a retailer.
Baen (still) has a Direct sales presence. They needed to adjust their retail pricing to allow for other (new) avenues of distribution.
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Old 06-26-2014, 11:12 AM   #26
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It is also insurance against direct sales undercutting a retailer.
Baen (still) has a Direct sales presence. They needed to adjust their retail pricing to allow for other (new) avenues of distribution.
Exactly.
It looks like a "trust but verify" thing.
Backstab insurance.
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Old 06-26-2014, 11:36 AM   #27
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Amazon have always had the "you can't sell it more cheaply elsewhere" condition, to the best of my knowledge. They certainly do for self-published books.
Self-published is a completely different issue. You are letting Amazon be your publisher basically and to do so you have to accept their terms.
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Old 06-26-2014, 11:43 AM   #28
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If a book unexpectedly sold so many that the publishers ran out I would think they would be delighted if Amazon took on the expence of putting more copies in the hands of the slavering hordes wanting the book until the publishers have time to print a new batch. It's not like they wouldn't get the same royalties. Certainly the authors should be delighted to sell more copies. If anything it's insurance for the publishers so they wouldn't need to print un-needed copies of a potential dud book. Isn't that a major expence for the publishers, printing, and paying for the printing and storage of a lot of books that simply no one wants to buy?
But if you ordered a specific version of the book and got a different version, you might not be happy.
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Old 06-26-2014, 12:01 PM   #29
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Self-published is a completely different issue. You are letting Amazon be your publisher basically and to do so you have to accept their terms.
No. Amazon is not a publisher to indies. Publishers buy control of IP rights and Amazon does not control any indie IP. That is what makes them independent to start with.

Amazon is just a distributor. They don't pay royalties but rather charge distribution fees. That is why they have a bandwidth charge and separate contracts for Audible and Createspace.

The IP rights stay with the author (or small publishing house), not Amazon, and unless the publisher of record chooses to sign up with KDP select (on a 90 days basis) the publisher can unilaterally end the contract at a moment's notice. It is also why an indie can choose to distribute through other channels (Nook, Kobo, iTunes, Smashwords, XinXii, etc) in parallel to Kindle or choose to go exclusive with KDP Select.

Controlling the IP is what separates indies from tradpub authors.

(And price matching is not limited to indies.)

Last edited by fjtorres; 06-26-2014 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 06-26-2014, 12:07 PM   #30
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There are enough contractual issues floating around in this question that I might use it to write my next final exam.

As to the NDAs, I would be interested to know if they actually have an NDA just to cover the contract negotiations. I know what sort of things happen here in terms of evidentiary law, but I am simply curious to know how Amazon treats these sorts of meetings. I wonder if signing an NDA is part of your ticket to even to get to the table. Do parties even have a choice?

As to the contract itself, there is a difference to me in leverage and in something that is patently unfair or signed under what would be termed duress. Does Hachette have any other option besides Amazon? It would be hard to show duress here as would the issue of fairness.

The print on demand option is the most troublesome issue for me because I, as a consumer, would believe I had been sent the wrong thing were I to get a cheaply bound paperback when I ordered a deckle-edged hardcover. I think that presents a real issue of material change in what is provided. Publishers would be right to challenge as it could materially harm a publisher's business if that copy of the book would be held out as the publisher's own. (Might be nice for brick and mortars though who DO have the nice copy in stock).
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