"Consumers Don't Mind...Ads." Really?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

As to movies and TVs, there are different formats there too, not to mention the Great Divide between film and video. Lots of different hardware for watching movies. There's been ads from the beginning in both.

There are ads on TV, which had been in one format for decades, and has now shifted to a second format. There had been ads at beginnings & ends of movies in theatres, and I'm not sure any of those were used to lower the cost of the movies.

Yet there are plenty of web ads-including on this very site. There are PDF ads too.

I don't see any ads on this site. (I'm logged in, and I have adblock plus.) If advertisers are expecting my attention, they're not getting their money's worth.

Ads in PDFs will be stripped out by whatever program is used to make the PDF readable on a 6" screen. Or they'll be left in, read on reflow, and considered a nuisance--and that person is less likely to get the next issue of that magazine.

Books are read by millions of people as well : why wouldn't the same work for books as for TVs?

A "successful" book, according to the Authors' Guild, sells 5,000 copies. A handful of top bestsellers sell millions... Harry Potter & The Deathly Hallows, the biggest initial print run ever, sold 12 million copies in the US. That's plenty--but the *average* prime-time TV show in the US has 15-20 million viewers. Deathly Hallows is noteworthy as a book; compared to TV, it reached less people than the average episode of Friends.

I think, Elfwreck, you are viscerally opposed to ads in books and I sympathize.

I'm not philosophically opposed to them; I just know I won't put up with interference when I read. And I'm not in a small crowd there. Plenty of us will deal with splash page ads at the beginning or end of a book; those aren't likely to be useful enough for advertisers to pay for them. They can't count on them being seen & paid attention to like magazine ads. (Magazines are made of many small pieces; there are breaks built into the reading. Single-narrative books don't have those same kinds of breaks; chapter endings aren the same as article endings.) Advertisers can't count on their ad formatting being useful, because they don't know how the book will be read. (On a computer screen/tablet that allows color & animation, vs on an e-ink screen, with no color, and no support for some image types. Or on a phone that allows color, but shrinks the picture to fit a 3" screen.)

Ads in book-ish apps are common, and will stick around like ads in magazines--because the creators know how those ads are viewed. Ads in text ebooks designed to read on a number of devices are less controllable, and there's little incentive to offset the cost of the book for them.

The logic of the freemium model is that there are people who value free/cheap over no ads.

Sure. Always will be. I'm often one of them. But that doesn't mean I buy the advertised product--and the less I see of the ads, the less likely I am to buy.

I read on an e-ink device, and when I get ebooks incompatible formats, including most PDFs, I convert them first. I'm not in the main buying group for that trait, but I'm not an extreme outlier either; a lot of people throw everything they buy into Calibre to manage their collection, and export-to-device in whatever format works best for them.

I expect to see a growing number of attempts to put ads in ebooks, starting with splash pages at the front; I don't expect them to ever reach the ubiquity of ads in TV shows or magazines. I don't expect them to ever manage to subsidize the price of the ebook for the end consumer, except for the rare cases where an advertiser takes on the entire price as a promotion--"Download the free romance ebook Mostly Pure, sponsored by Ivory soap"--and I expect most of those promotions to be from publishers, not other products.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by stonetools

The success of KSO hints that there are a lot of folk out there that don't mind ads- despite the confident predictions on this forum that KSO was DOA. (Maybe I'm overdoing TLAs?

Confident predictions of failure for the KSO on MR? Where do you get this stuff? When the KSO was first being discussed in various threads on MR, there was no clear consensus. In fact, there was a pretty even split between "why not?" and "f*** no!"... from the very start.

Your constant willingness to paint the entire (or even a simple majority) of the MR membership with your wide, digerati® paint-brush is completely unwarranted (and quite lazy). If you weren't spending 100% of your time focused the few threads that are based on highly contentious subjects, you'd realize this.

What was the last book you read? Did you share your experience with the MR membership in the "What are you reading now?" thread? Or would you rather just focus on the differences that you have with the very vocal minority--and pretend like it's a vast army that you've been charged with vanquishing single-handedly?

[stonetools]

Confident predictions of failure for the KSO on MR? Where do you get this stuff? When the KSO was first being discussed in various threads on MR, there was no clear consensus. In fact, there was a pretty even split between "why not?" and "f*** no!"... from the very start.

IOW, there WERE confident predictions of failure (as well as predictions of success). Thanks for agreeing with me.

Your constant willingness to paint the entire (or even a simple majority) of the MR membership with your wide, digerati® paint-brush is completely unwarranted (and quite lazy). If you weren't spending 100% of your time focused the few threads that are based on highly contentious subjects, you'd realize this.

What was the last book you read? Did you share your experience with the MR membership in the "What are you reading now?" thread? Or would you rather just focus on the differences that you have with the very vocal minority--and pretend like it's a vast army that you've been charged with vanquishing single-handedly?

Well, I have to admit some of the threads I have started or participated in have been quite contentious , but generally, that's only in relation to the Topic That Cannot be Rationally Discussed. If you do a search on my username, you will see that I have participated in quite a few non-contentious threads, including threads in which I have made recommendations or talked about what I have read.

[stonetools]

I read on an e-ink device, and when I get ebooks incompatible formats, including most PDFs, I convert them first. I'm not in the main buying group for that trait, but I'm not an extreme outlier either; a lot of people throw everything they buy into Calibre to manage their collection, and export-to-device in whatever format works best for them.

You should remember that to the average user, calibre refers to the ammunition they use in their guns, not software
I think you may be overestimating the technical challenges here: advertisers have ALWAYS tailored their ads to different formats and devices. There are different AT&T ads for TVs, magazines and the Web.Its what advertisers DO.
Meanwhile, I'm leafing through my high-toned literary magazine(The Atlantic) and I'm seeing ads before, after, and in the middle of long-form articles about presidential politics and other Very Important Topics.
Again, you might be right: maybe book buyers will absolutely not tolerate ads in books , other than splash ads at the beginning and the end. However, the KSO example indicates that even THAT may be significant. There were plenty of people here and elsewhere on the Interwebs who said that $25 off for tthe KSO would not be enough to spur sales of the KSO. Well, they were wrong.

There are lots of games that go for $0.00 ad-supported and $4.99 for the premium no -ads upgrade. Ditto software. I think ebooks could also work. Those squeamish about ads could just pay full price right up front

Meanwhile, this is being tried HERE, where they are doing both freemium and subscription. We will soon see what works.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by stonetools

If you do a search on my username, you will see that I have participated in quite a few non-contentious threads, including threads in which I have made recommendations or talked about what I have read.

I did... and I sincerely apologize for missing that one post.

[stonetools]

You're welcome... and it's more than one.

[J. Strnad]

Because of DVRs and people skipping the ads on TV, product placement within the show itself has become huge. Every car is product placement, every box of cereal, every soft drink, every computer, every cell phone and on and on. Is it coincidence that the brand of the laptop is plainly visible in at least one shot in every scene containing that laptop? Of course not.

BTW, I don't remember people on this forum predicting death for the KSO. A lot of people (myself included) said that they definitely didn't want one, but that's not the same as predicting failure for it.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I think you may be overestimating the technical challenges here: advertisers have ALWAYS tailored their ads to different formats and devices. There are different AT&T ads for TVs, magazines and the Web.Its what advertisers DO.

And with ebooks, they can't. They don't know if the person will be reading on a Kindle, a PC, a Blackberry, an iPad, or a Kobo. If they restrict the ads to ebooks that only work on one type of hardware, they cut out a huge portion of their market. (Some who use other hardware will get the ebook anyway--and run it through DRM stripper & converters, so the ads will possibly be removed, and definitely no longer arranged as originally planned.)

The only ebook market locked to a single device is the iBookstore, and there's no indication that it's managing to compete well.

Meanwhile, I'm leafing through my high-toned literary magazine(The Atlantic) and I'm seeing ads before, after, and in the middle of long-form articles about presidential politics and other Very Important Topics.

How many digital subscriptions to The Atlantic are there? How many are read on portable ebook readers?

Ads in pbooks might work (although attempts in the past are not encouraging); ads in ebooks are facing problems that no print edition deals with.

Meanwhile, this is being tried HERE, where they are doing both freemium and subscription. We will soon see what works.

I notice they don't have a list of books available. Or that will be available. Nor a list of publishers whose books they'll be offering. Nor any info about the software--will the social aspects only be for ebooks it provides? Will access to the ebooks stick around forever, or will books be phased in & out of the service?

You argue, often, that publishers shouldn't be willing to sell ebooks without DRM because it's an untested practice and they might go broke on it (despite the success of several companies who've done so), but you expect to be taken seriously when you point to an advertisement for a service that doesn't exist yet and isn't even defined? This is your evidence that ads in ebooks are economically viable?

You've completely dodged the issues of pricing:

If a publisher wants $10 for the sale of a book, of which 30% goes to the ebookstore, it'll take $10 coming from advertisers to make that a free book for the reader. It'll take $5 from advertisers to make it a $5 book.

Which advertiser/s do you think will pay $5 for *every person* who buys that ebook? Or do you think publishers will take less than their currently desired list price for advert-laden ebooks?

Ebooks-with-advertising could work--if publishers were willing to accept less than trade paperback price for the books. If publishers were willing to accept $1 from a group of 4 different publishers per ebook sold (so each is paying $.25 to include their ads, of whatever type), and sell those books at $3, they'd work great. But mainstream publishers seem to believe that ebooks need to cost between $7 (for low-popularity backlist genre titles) to $15, and any ads that could greatly affect those prices would be too invasive for most customers.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by stonetools

You're welcome... and it's more than one.

It is now.

But whatever... nice to see all your recent participation in the Recommendations Forum--regardless of what prompted it.

There's always a lot of questions being asked in the mobi and epub format forums, also, if you happen to have any expertise you're willing to share in that area (or just in case you're looking to round out your MR participation experience). Feel free to branch out.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

It is now.

But whatever... nice to see all your recent participation in the Recommendations Forum--regardless of what prompted it.

There's always a lot of questions being asked in the mobi and epub format forums, also, if you happen to have any expertise you're willing to share in that area (or just in case you're looking to round out your MR participation experience). Feel free to branch out.

Hey, its Sunday afternoon and the missus is out, so I have time to play . I'll be contributing a little more over there in a minute.

[stonetools]

And with ebooks, they can't. They don't know if the person will be reading on a Kindle, a PC, a Blackberry, an iPad, or a Kobo. If they restrict the ads to ebooks that only work on one type of hardware, they cut out a huge portion of their market. (Some who use other hardware will get the ebook anyway--and run it through DRM stripper & converters, so the ads will possibly be removed, and definitely no longer arranged as originally planned.)

The only ebook market locked to a single device is the iBookstore, and there's no indication that it's managing to compete well.

(Shrug). So they'll tailor ads to different devices. Sorry, but I don't see this as the overwhelming technical obstacle you make this out to be. If its worth it to the advertisers and their clients, that's what they'll do. If the geeky one per cent use their hacking skills to strip out the ads , well, so be it. The something-for-nothing crowd will always be there.

You've completely dodged the issues of pricing:

I'm sorry, but I did discuss price. More than once. I mentioned the $5 spread between the ad-supported and premium versions of games. I mentioned that Amazon was able to discount $25 between the no ads Kindle and the KSO.
Now how much would it be worth to advertisers if an ebook displayed a splash ad every time it opened? I don't know the answer but based on the success of the KSO, it may be worth quite a bit- maybe not $25, but maybe more than $5.
Let's say its worth $5. Amazon's typical price for an ebook that's a MMPB is $7.99. Supposed it offered $2.99 for the ad-supported version, with an option to upgrade to the ad-free version for $5 more later? I'm betting SOMEBODY would take that deal, given the love of folks on the Internet for "deals" and "freebies".
I'm not the only one who thinks so, which is why I pointed you to that beta site. Now its a beta , which implies "new" , "unproven" and indeed "under construction". We won't know for a couple of months what's being offered, and we may not know for some time after whether it will work. It shows, though , that there are people who think a freemium model can work for ebooks and who are willing to put their money where their mouth is. If they succeed even a little, I think we'll see Amazon or B&N roll out their efforts.

[Algiedi]

Hmm this Erika person might wanna remember that correlation does not imply causation.

Lots of people buying the KSO only means that lots of people are buying it. It doesn't tell you why. And it certainly doesn't tell you that people loooove seeing ads.

See for example, another interpretation would be that a vast portion of the customer base has such a tight budget, and those machines are so overpriced that they have no other choice but to give in to Amazon's blackmail, and end up accepting mercantile invasion of their leisure space to save a few bucks.

No one chooses to have ads unless they're forced to, because they're short on money.
That's not a happy thought, that's not progress. That's a sad, sad world where people end up having to pay to see ads (when so far it's been the other way around).

[Giggleton]

Some consumers don't mind ads, really.

Maybe there will be a serial novel renaissance, but I doubt it, we want things instantly now.

As far as that 24 Symbols site goes, this turned me away from the site,

"It comes from the Internet cloud, so files are not really downloaded, just used
online. Therefore, there is no danger of illegal copies"

More of the same.

Copying is not illegal.

[odiakkoh]

The KSO appeals to me because of the special offers. If the KSO and the K3 wifi were the same price, i would still get the KSO. It being $25 cheaper is a cherry on top for me.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Algiedi

See for example, another interpretation would be that a vast portion of the customer base has such a tight budget, and those machines are so overpriced that they have no other choice but to give in to Amazon's blackmail, and end up accepting mercantile invasion of their leisure space to save a few bucks.

You think Kindles are "so overpriced"? Seriously?

Although, I guess it's all relative... I paid $359 for my Kindle.

BOb