People who want no DRM are impractical dreamers...

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

As soon as iBooks can be read on PCs, someone will take one apart & analyze the code used to lock it, and create a key to either unlock it or copy the contents out. Apple may be fighting to keep iBooks on their devices to avoid this--which is part of why iBook sales aren't high; despite all the lovely mobile devices we've got, most people who read ebooks still read them on desktop or laptop computers.

Apple doesn't really have any motivation to put iBooks on PCs. Apple sells devices, not books. If Apple keeps iBooks just on mobile devices, that gives consumers one more reason to buy them.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Apple doesn't really have any motivation to put iBooks on PCs. Apple sells devices, not books. If Apple keeps iBooks just on mobile devices, that gives consumers one more reason to buy them.

At some point someone is going to want to read iBooks on a Macbook. I can see it happening.

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by queentess

At some point someone is going to want to read iBooks on a Macbook. I can see it happening.

Oh, I can see that happening, too. But I don't think Apple gives a rat's ass. Apple's MO is producing products and telling consumers they want them, rather than producing the products consumers want. They release the product that Steve Jobs likes, and whoever buys them, buys them.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Apple doesn't really have any motivation to put iBooks on PCs. Apple sells devices, not books. If Apple keeps iBooks just on mobile devices, that gives consumers one more reason to buy them.

iTunes is available for PCs. With enough outside pressure, Apple will make software available for devices it doesn't control. iBooks may wind up going the same route. It'll probably take longer, because the book industry is much smaller & slower than the music industry.

[toddos]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I suspect iBooks DRM will be cracked as soon as Apple comes up with an iBooks reader for computers, rather than iDevices. IIRC, Topaz remained uncracked until the Kindle-for-PC program was released, and then it was quickly cracked.

I didn't mean to imply that FairPlay was so good that it hadn't been cracked yet. FairPlay for music and video (and really just video since music doesn't get DRMed anymore) gets cracked after every update because people actually purchase from the iTunes video store. Nobody buys iBooks, so nobody has any interest in cracking FairPlay for books. Assuming somebody did care, it should be a pretty trivial crack.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by toddos

I didn't mean to imply that FairPlay was so good that it hadn't been cracked yet. FairPlay for music and video (and really just video since music doesn't get DRMed anymore) gets cracked after every update because people actually purchase from the iTunes video store. Nobody buys iBooks, so nobody has any interest in cracking FairPlay for books. Assuming somebody did care, it should be a pretty trivial crack.

Can you even remove iBooks from the iPad to a PC? FairPlay music/vids can be put on the hard drive in order to crack them; I'm not sure iBooks are available like that--I thought they were locked in Apple's internal code and not independently transferable.

[toddos]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Can you even remove iBooks from the iPad to a PC? FairPlay music/vids can be put on the hard drive in order to crack them; I'm not sure iBooks are available like that--I thought they were locked in Apple's internal code and not independently transferable.

I'm pretty sure you can download them to iTunes. They're certainly stored when you backup your device and you could use any backup-cracking tool to extract them from that. Also, any rooted iOS device can browse the filesystem, either from the device itself or via ssh (and pull files off using sftp). Then it's just a matter of figuring out where the files are. Since everybody iBook install has the Winnie the Pooh book, find that and you've found where iBooks stores its data.

Cracking it will be trickier, since you can't exactly attach a debugger to iBooks and see what it's doing. But given knowledge of how FairPlay works for videos and music and knowledge of how DRM hooks into the ePub format, a capable FairPlay hacker should be able to figure it out without too many difficulties. The problem is that there's really no demand for it. If you look at the Requiem message boards, I think I've seen all of one request for ebook crack support, and the reply to that was essentially "Nobody cares, but if you want to learn go for it".

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

iTunes is available for PCs. With enough outside pressure, Apple will make software available for devices it doesn't control. iBooks may wind up going the same route. It'll probably take longer, because the book industry is much smaller & slower than the music industry.

The difference between iTunes and iBooks is greater than that, though. IIRC, when Apple made iTunes available for PCs, the iPod only did music. The iPad, on the other hand, does music, apps, and e-books. That means Apple doesn't really need people to use iBooks to sell iPads, whereas they really needed people to use iTunes with iPods.

[HamsterRage]

The more I think about it, the more the stuff about casual sharing pisses me off. One way that books are way, way different from music is that books are typically used once where music files are used often. Sure, there are some books that I'll read several times over, and sometimes I'll go back and reread a series if I've had to wait a while for the latest book to come out. But the vast majority of the books I've read, I've read exactly once.

For that vast majority of books (pbooks, at least), I'm happy to lend them to friends - sometime many friends - and I'm often not too disturbed if the book comes back damaged or gets lost or whatever. I'll probably never read it again anyways.

And the fact that I can't read that pbook while it's gone isn't a factor. I don't want to.

The change in my average consumption of an ebook would negligible whether or not I had to delete it (or lock it out) or not from my own devices while it was lent out or flat out given to someone else. After the initial read, 99% of the time I don't even care if I've still got the ebook in my library or not.

As far as I can tell, an ebook, to be priced at anything more than a small fraction of the cost of a pbook has to have the same abilities as a pbook. And that means transferring it (for free or not) to someone else.

Now I'm rambling, but I think I made a stab at a point somewhere in there.

[CyGuy]

Originally Posted by HamsterRage

The more I think about it, the more the stuff about casual sharing pisses me off. One way that books are way, way different from music is that books are typically used once where music files are used often. Sure, there are some books that I'll read several times over, and sometimes I'll go back and reread a series if I've had to wait a while for the latest book to come out. But the vast majority of the books I've read, I've read exactly once.

For that vast majority of books (pbooks, at least), I'm happy to lend them to friends - sometime many friends - and I'm often not too disturbed if the book comes back damaged or gets lost or whatever. I'll probably never read it again anyways.

And the fact that I can't read that pbook while it's gone isn't a factor. I don't want to.

The change in my average consumption of an ebook would negligible whether or not I had to delete it (or lock it out) or not from my own devices while it was lent out or flat out given to someone else. After the initial read, 99% of the time I don't even care if I've still got the ebook in my library or not.

As far as I can tell, an ebook, to be priced at anything more than a small fraction of the cost of a pbook has to have the same abilities as a pbook. And that means transferring it (for free or not) to someone else.

Now I'm rambling, but I think I made a stab at a point somewhere in there.

You know what, I agree with you on this point. I listen to music files over and over again, but an ebook is usually a one-time-use item for me. They should be priced accordingly...

[Freeshadow]

@HR at this you can't generalize
(the difference between throw-away readers, and re-readers has been already mentioned elsewhere) A re-reader wouldn't even mind buying a book that's not worth being read again and again over the years if s/he knows that. These are the only books which matter for them. the stuff they happen to read once are wrong guessed choices.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

@HR at this you can't generalize
(the difference between throw-away readers, and re-readers has been already mentioned elsewhere) A re-reader wouldn't even mind buying a book that's not worth being read again and again over the years if s/he knows that. These are the only books which matter for them. the stuff they happen to read once are wrong guessed choices.

The easy solution to that is "throw-away, locked books that only you can read, and only for a limited time: $1. Books you can read forever or hand along to a friend: $10." Or similar pricing difference. Disposable single-use books cheap; permanent books cost more. If you liked the $1 version and want to keep it, you fork over a few more dollars for the permanent one.

Except the mainstream publishers are trying to insist that ebooks should wear out as fast as badly-produced pulp paperbacks, and be less sharable, for a higher price.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

You know what, I agree with you on this point. I listen to music files over and over again, but an ebook is usually a one-time-use item for me. They should be priced accordingly...

I have to disagree. I want the ability to reread; if I didn't, I would get all my books from the library. I am willing to pay a premium for ownership of the book. This is why DRM and licenses and books in the cloud make me see red--they interfere with my basic right of ownership.

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The easy solution to that is "throw-away, locked books that only you can read, and only for a limited time: $1. Books you can read forever or hand along to a friend: $10." Or similar pricing difference. Disposable single-use books cheap; permanent books cost more. If you liked the $1 version and want to keep it, you fork over a few more dollars for the permanent one.

Except the mainstream publishers are trying to insist that ebooks should wear out as fast as badly-produced pulp paperbacks, and be less sharable, for a higher price.

what for me may be throw away-content for you might be a precious gem.
"de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum" so how to apprize?

a propos wearing out - I still posess some very "badly-produced pulp paperbacks" being decades old...
so much about the natural wearing out.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

what for me may be throw away-content for you might be a precious gem.
"de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum" so how to apprize?

Every ebook offered both ways. If you know you want the permanent version, you pay for that. If you're not sure, you pay the extra dollar for the throwaway first, and you're out a dollar if you guessed wrong.

This, of course, is the Elf's Fantasy Land version of commerce, in which publishers try to meet actual customer desires in a way that allows them to make a profit, instead of the real-world version where publishers decide what they want to sell, and then try to convince the customers to pay for that.

a propos wearing out - I still posess some very "badly-produced pulp paperbacks" being decades old...
so much about the natural wearing out.

ALL PAPER BOOKS WEAR OUT AFTER 26 USES. HARPER COLLINS TOLD ME SO, AND HARPER COLLINS WOULDN'T LIE.

Do not attempt to obfuscate the issues with your silly earth logic.