Chinese Typography

[ahi]

Originally Posted by ericshliao

In fact, if the layout of each glyph is monospaced, it's inevitable that some comma will start a line. To avoid such problem, the font used must be proportional, not monospaced.

Or consistently insert a slightly wider space between each character on a given line, to push at least one character onto the next line, so that the comma becomes the 2nd character.

That would work even with monospace fonts. Right?

This seems to be exactly what the Chinese newspaper I have does.

Originally Posted by ericshliao

For English or other western language, there is space between words, so it's quite easy to avoid comma starts a line, both with monospaced or proportional fonts. But for Chinese publication, if decided to use monospaced layout, the rule to avoid comma starting a line is impossible.

In English and western languages, there is also space between letters, just as there can be spaces between Chinese characters. That's what I'm alluding to above.

- Ahi

[ericshliao]

Originally Posted by ahi

Or consistently insert a slightly wider space between each character on a given line, to push at least one character onto the next line, so that the comma becomes the 2nd character.

That would work even with monospace fonts. Right?

Yes. And that's the only possibility I can think of. But the trade-off, you must know it, is that additional space on page will be needed.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by ericshliao

Yes. And that's the only possibility I can think of. But the trade-off, you must know it, is that additional space on page will be needed.

Yes, and of course you are right. However the additional space should be minimal enough that a cursory glance at the page cannot readily identify it... in other words it won't distract from the reading experience.

- Ahi

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by ericshliao

Definitely I am a layman for Chinese publication, but I can prove that you are wrong. Those rules applying to English publication do not absolutely apply to Traditional Chinese publication. Several books on my shelf contain lines with comma starting a line, including a dictionary edited by several language experts.
In fact, if the layout of each glyph is monospaced, it's inevitable that some comma will start a line. To avoid such problem, the font used must be proportional, not monospaced.
For English or other western language, there is space between words, so it's quite easy to avoid comma starts a line, both with monospaced or proportional fonts. But for Chinese publication, if decided to use monospaced layout, the rule to avoid comma starting a line is impossible.

I have badly formatted books too, especially independently-published stuff that was done with Microsoft Word (I've worked doing writing in one private publishing office in Taipei).

There are plenty of terrible publications, sure, but that does not refute the point that there are typographic rules. You can even modify the rules in decent word processors.

For formal monospacing with strict justify, the appropriate measure is to set up hanging punctuation rules as I mentioned in my first post on the topic. Otherwise, spacing can be modified, expanded or contracted, and the punctuation can be condensed as well. For most things I read on the internet, basic linebreaking rules apply with left-justify (ragged right) and the line will be broken automatically 1 character prior to an offending (i.e. slated to start following line) punctuation mark.

[ericshliao]

Originally Posted by ahi

Are they high-quality books from large and reputable publishers?

The existence of poorly typeset books is no proof that typography (or typographic correctness) are non-existent concepts.

First, I will never say that such rule does "not" exist for Chinese publication. After all, I am not in that business and I have never been trained in that profession.

Second, I would like to remind all of you that modern publication industry in Chinese is not so advanced as some other countries. I did found several books following the rule, but I also want to remind you that such rule, even if any, is not widely accepted in our people, at least not so widely accepted as those countries with advanced publication industry. Maybe some (or many) publication companies adopt the rule, but it seems still far from standards. In academia scenario or daily reading, we really don't care about it. If some violation does occur in a Chinese book, we will not say it's wrong or the publicaton is bad.

Third, I won't judge a publication good or bad by whether certain un-widely accepted rules are followed. The logic is: there must exist some rules to follow so we can distinguish violation of rule. If there is no such rule, how can we distinguish violation of rule. For some countries with durable and advanced publication industry, the rule is widely accpted, so how to distinguish violation of rule is easy. But that's not the situation for Chinese publication. Since such rules are not so widely accepted as standards or semi-standards, how can we say for sure that a publication is bad because it does not follow the rules. I think it's not fair to judge something based on a "rule" that is never widely accepted as a rule.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

For formal monospacing with strict justify, the appropriate measure is to set up hanging punctuation rules as I mentioned in my first post on the topic. Otherwise, spacing can be modified, expanded or contracted, and the punctuation can be condensed as well. For most things I read on the internet, basic linebreaking rules apply with left-justify (ragged right) and the line will be broken automatically 1 character prior to an offending (i.e. slated to start following line) punctuation mark.

Wonder how that would look. Do you know any PDFs online that would showcase the hanging indent?

Do you know how one would do the full justification with hanging indent in XeLaTeX, LDBoblo?

- Ahi

[ahi]

Is there perhaps some way to massage zhspacing ( http://zhspacing.googlecode.com/files/zhs-man071211.pdf ) into doing so?

- Ahi

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by ahi

Wonder how that would look. Do you know any PDFs online that would showcase the hanging indent?

Do you know how one would do the full justification with hanging indent in XeLaTeX, LDBoblo?

- Ahi

Afraid I've never done Chinese in TeX, so I'm pretty useless there (sorry again!). Just threw together a couple of pages for a PDF with the most basic settings. This is straight from a word processor, and I didn't bother with punctuation compression or anything too formal, but it shows the basic idea...

[ericshliao]

Originally Posted by ahi

Or consistently insert a slightly wider space between each character on a given line, to push at least one character onto the next line, so that the comma becomes the 2nd character.

That would work even with monospace fonts. Right?

I forgot to mention one thing. Although it's a working approach, but the result is ugly (the comma that's left in the end of line and there is nothing else in the same column) in my own view.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

Afraid I've never done Chinese in TeX, so I'm pretty useless there (sorry again!). Just threw together a couple of pages for a PDF with the most basic settings. This is straight from a word processor, and I didn't bother with punctuation compression or anything too formal, but it shows the basic idea...

Thanks, LDBoblo! That's great.

I'm not particularly enamoured with any of the solutions... I wonder if line-starting punctuation would seem/feel less wrong, if it was not so visually distinct both in Western and Chinese writing systems.

e.g.: If the comma character was "氷"... (I know it already has a meaning, but obviously I cannot very well input an as yet non-existent CJK character.) Perhaps in writing where words are already not separated, the sometimes (from a western typographic perspective) unorthodox placement of it at the beginning of a line would not be too jarring... as Eric's comments already suggest. And given that the character does not look strikingly different from other Hanzi characters, there would be no visual jarring either.

Note: I'm not suggesting this is how Chinese should be written. I'm now proposing a pure thought experiment... primarily to LDBoblo, but happily enough to anyone else who'd like to share their opinion.

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by ericshliao

I forgot to mention one thing. Although it's a working approach, but the result is ugly (the comma that's left in the end of line and there is nothing else in the same column) in my own view.

From my limited foreigner's perspective, I agree with you, in fact I'd go so far as to suggest that the use of punctuation seems to generally compromise the aesthetics of Chinese writing.

- Ahi

[ericshliao]

Originally Posted by ahi

From my limited foreigner's perspective, I agree with you, in fact I'd go so far as to suggest that the use of punctuation seems to generally compromise the aesthetics of Chinese writing.

- Ahi

Besides, I seem not remember seeing any publication using such approach.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by ericshliao

Besides, I seem not remember seeing any publication using such approach.

That's odd, because most definitely the Canadian-Chinese newspaper I have uses this approach exclusively. (i.e.: varying character-spacing by line)

- Ahi

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by ahi

Thanks, LDBoblo! That's great.

I'm not particularly enamoured with any of the solutions... I wonder if line-starting punctuation would seem/feel less wrong, if it was not so visually distinct both in Western and Chinese writing systems.

e.g.: If the comma character was "氷"... (I know it already has a meaning, but obviously I cannot very well input an as yet non-existent CJK character.) Perhaps in writing where words are already not separated, the sometimes (from a western typographic perspective) unorthodox placement of it at the beginning of a line would not be too jarring... as Eric's comments already suggest. And given that the character does not look strikingly different from other Hanzi characters, there would be no visual jarring either.

Note: I'm not suggesting this is how Chinese should be written. I'm now proposing a pure thought experiment... primarily to LDBoblo, but happily enough to anyone else who'd like to share their opinion.

- Ahi

I'm offline in just a bit but I think that since punctuation itself has a bit of semantic value (though perhaps a dependent one), it would still be uncomfortable to allow punctuation to start/stop lines...not just visually but perhaps syntactically as well.

In most of my Chinese books, the line length is great enough to allow flexible spacing for justification (between characters) without being overly obvious as my pdf examples were. Admittedly, most are also vertically typeset. I'll look about next chance I get to find some properly horizontally set materials. Do you have in mind literature formatting or are you thinking of more compact stuff?

[ahi]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

I'm offline in just a bit but I think that since punctuation itself has a bit of semantic value (though perhaps a dependent one), it would still be uncomfortable to allow punctuation to start/stop lines...not just visually but perhaps syntactically as well.

In most of my Chinese books, the line length is great enough to allow flexible spacing for justification (between characters) without being overly obvious as my pdf examples were. Admittedly, most are also vertically typeset. I'll look about next chance I get to find some properly horizontally set materials. Do you have in mind literature formatting or are you thinking of more compact stuff?

Literature... but for the PRS-505... so the available space is not crazy tight, but definitely limited.

I guess I find the grid notion to be very aesthetic... but there can really be no punctuation-position-respecting typographic solution that keeps it in place... unless punctuation was placed above or below the character, between the interline space, I suppose.

- Ahi