The Vent and Rant Thread

[speakingtohe]

I think it is foolish to prejudge people by their ethnic origins.

Some people are classic examples of our preconceptions, but most people try to do the best they can.

My idea of an ideal relationship is one where the people involved seem to still enjoy each others company. A 70+ person calling their spouse sweetie and having the spouse look pleased, makes me think how lovely.

And seeing two people who have been a couple for a few years enjoy a long conversation after several years of marriage, not revolving totally on domestic matters, makes me think they both must be doing something right.

It takes two to tango and if one person is very dominantly in charge,except in rare cases it is because the other person has allowed it and possibly even encouraged it.

Of course sufficient funds do help in making life smoother, but I have seen a lot of miserable wealthy people too.

Helen

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I think it is foolish to prejudge people by their ethnic origins.

Yeah, I'm not going there, not touching that one. I've worked in EUR, worked on major hotels with scads of Japanese people, worked with US citizens, worked with Canadians, and haven't found much difference, really. People are people. I won't speak to the several couples I know in which older, more-successful men have married younger, Asian brides, because I'm devoutly hoping it's just an accidental stereotype. {shrug}.

It takes two to tango and if one person is very dominantly in charge,except in rare cases it is because the other person has allowed it and possibly even encouraged it.

Of course sufficient funds do help in making life smoother, but I have seen a lot of miserable wealthy people too.

Helen

Agreed--money doesn't solve everything, but serious financial imbalances can certainly make someone who is domineering to start (not talking gender here) even more so.

@katsunami:

And THAT is what I am seeing A LOT: men calling their wife "The Boss" or "The Accountant" exactly because of this point.

Quite bluntly, I think you are utterly misconstruing what you're seeing. I know of many, many men (I know more men than women; it's just a business thing) who speak pretty candidly to their female colleagues in ways that they never would to their male friends, who've told me that having "the old ball and chain" as a convenient excuse to NOT do something worked for them. I also know several millionaires who expressly delegate all their personal expenditure and bookkeeping (stocks, bonds, and pocket money) to their wives, specifically so they won't go out and blow the money.

I've known many men who simply can't hold on to money. Is it a chromosome thing? Hell if I know. But lots of women are security-minded, in a way that men (generally) aren't. It's evolutionary biology, really.

And, before this blows up: yes, I know I just spoke in broad, ridiculous generalities, and I loathe that my own self. But for every stereotypical gold-digger trophy wife out there, there's a guy that can't hold on to $50 in his pocket. As Helen said: two to tango.

And, seriously: do you really, really think that a MAN you know is going to publicly admit that his wife "won't let him" buy something, unless he was completely in accord with it? REALLY???? That he's so you-know-what-whipped that he can't spend 300EU from a $30K account? Tell his buddies he's on an allowance, if he's the breadwinner, in some unwilling fashion? He's that much of a...what would that be? What's the opposite of an Alpha male? An Omega male? Horseradish. Utter horseradish. NEVAH happened. Nooooo. It's contrary to every male instinct, even the least alpha. Now you're venturing into crazy-talk.

Not where I am, apparently. Over here, it seems that, if you're a woman that can call someone her boyfriend, the woman often seems to be of the opinion that said boyfriend's money and time has now become her property; even if said woman is 10 years younger and barely out of (or even still IN (!)) college. You might not believe it, but I'm not making this up.

If it's true, it's deranged. I don't know of ANY woman who would consider her "boyfriend's" property HERS. No offense, but it sounds utter bollox to me. I'm sure you believe it, and maybe you know some people who've been in cracked relationships like that, but I don't.

Hitch

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Maybe that's it. If an issue we disagreed about needed to be discussed the two Japanese girlfriends did so gracefully by providing solid arguments for their viewpoints. All the Dutch girlfriends (apart from one, on good days, three in total) disagreed by throwing temper tantrums after I failed to see the single reason of "because I want it like that."

And THAT is perhaps the very best description of the differences!

In short: the man is only there to bring in money for something like 40 years and shut up regarding all domestic decisions. I think that's quite a bleak life. If it would have to be like that, I'd rather stay single like... forever.

I think so too. But unfortunately, in Japanese culture, a man can not advance though his company unless he is married. Although an unwritten rule, it is still an important one. This is one reason why 'arranged marriages' still account for more than 30% of all Japanese families. In fact, my niece-in-law just married this way. She put her name in with a marriage broker as she was 29 yrs old and still single. Too old for the traditional dating game in Japan. She married a very nice 30yr old man who also placed himself in the hands of a marriage broker.

Regarding the extreme working hours, hasn't this been changing in Japan since the 80's? I've read that legislation has been passed, stating the 40-hour work week to be standard, with heavy restrictions on overwork. It seems the work-related death rate (karoshi) became a catastrophe back then.

Yes, and no... Japanese men still put in 60-70 hour weeks as the norm. They just don't get paid for the overtime. Karoshi still exists, and you hear about it regularly in the news, usually when a family is trying to sue the company. But the problem is, again culturally, that the man feels obligated to put in those hours so his company can prosper. If given a 5-day vacation, he will usually only take 3 days then go back to work because he really wants his company to get ahead and feels a devotion to it that we in the West will never understand. It's his 'duty' to be there for the company.

To be honest, I am not clear on current standings regarding these issues. A Japanese woman expecting or wanting to do the entire household by herself, might be very unhappy with me, either in the Netherlands or Japan (I'd still like to know about every decision and the reason for making it, even while fully delegating it to some else), and I would be very unhappy with 78 hour work weeks living on an allowance like a kid. That just wouldn't do.

Me too. That's one of the reasons I was so attracted to my wife. She doesn't like the traditional model either, and so our family life is quite well balanced. We discuss as much as possible, yet will both make unilateral decisions when needed, and have them supported by the other as being justified. It's a nice blend of East and West. There ARE women who are not cultural extremists.

Stitchawl

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Both women got the exact same result, except woman #2 massaged your ego.

...except that he said that they got their way decidedly more often and much quicker, just by asking or talking, instead of exploding to pieces if something wasn't to their liking. That's not massaging an ego. That's mature, rational methodology to reach satisfactory-to-both-sides solution to a problem.

She HANDLED you. Women have been HANDLING men since the dawn of time. You want to be handled? I'm sure that there are thousands of Dutch (and other) women that are perfectly happy to do that; trust me, we all know HOW. (We're trained on how to do it from childhood.)

It is precisely this mindset; that Western women are trained from childhood to manipulate (yeah... manipulate. It's the correct word for 'handle,') controlling rather than working together for a balanced end result that results in a win-win situation, that makes Asian women so much more attractive in a relationship. As you said, you've been trained on how to manipulate men from childhood. Asian women are trained to discuss both sides of an issue and resolve it without needing to control others.

Again, these are generalities. I'm quite sure there are plenty of Western women who weren't trained as you were, just as there are plenty of Japanese women who feel the need to dominate.


Stitchawl

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

...except that he said that they got their way decidedly more often and much quicker, just by asking or talking, instead of exploding to pieces if something wasn't to their liking. That's not massaging an ego. That's mature, rational methodology to reach satisfactory-to-both-sides solution to a problem.

Right. By getting to the same exact "decision" in a non-confrontational way? And who said that the Dutch woman 'exploded,' exactly? Other than saying (as reported, mind you), "no?" "No" is an explosion?

It is precisely this mindset; that Western women are trained from childhood to manipulate (yeah... manipulate. It's the correct word for 'handle,') controlling rather than working together for a balanced end result that results in a win-win situation, that makes Asian women so much more attractive in a relationship. As you said, you've been trained on how to manipulate men from childhood. Asian women are trained to discuss both sides of an issue and resolve it without needing to control others.

Umhmm. Because that's not happening in that scenario. She's not "handling him." LOL. Having a direct conversation isn't 'controlling someone.' Having to have a "discuss both sides of an issue and resolve it [without hurting the man's ego]" conversation is...NOT manipulation? So, according to you, when I say "no" to my husband's question about X, I'm being controlling and manipulative, but if I went through a boatload of gyrations, so that he could think that the outcome was as you described, "working for a balanced end," that's not manipulative? MWAHAHAHAHA. Yes, someone around here has been "well-trained," indeed.

Again, these are generalities. I'm quite sure there are plenty of Western women who weren't trained as you were, just as there are plenty of Japanese women who feel the need to dominate.

Right.

I've decided to bow out of this discussion, as I can't see it going anyplace good.

I'll end with this: I was once with a lawyer who was regaling me with stories as to how he and his manly-man son had gone to a "dude ranch," and how they'd both had such dreadful issues getting those danged horses to obey. I told him that he might want to think about why women are equestrians more often, and more successfully, than men, generally...it's because women spend their lives getting large, dumb potentially-dangerous animals to do what they want, and they do it by getting them to think it's their idea.

This is why women are so good with horses. (I'll bet the horse thinks it's a balanced outcome, too.)

[cromag]

In other news, my old LCD television (the cheapest model I could find seven years ago) stopped responding to its remote control a couple months ago. I was looking for a replacement, and lucked into a sale at Costco. It was at the upper end of our budget, but it was also larger, and had more features, than I expected to find in our price range.

It was delivered today. It looked great, until I plugged it in and turned it on. The screen went black with a vivid and distinctive shatter pattern across the screen. It looked like a windshield that had been hit with a baseball.

Anyway, Costco is a great company to deal with, and I reported the problem and got a commitment for a replacement in a quick phone call. The only problem was taking the new TV apart, packing it back in its box, and getting the old, partially defective TV back up. And, waiting for the new one, again.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Umhmm. Because that's not happening in that scenario. She's not "handling him." LOL. Having a direct conversation isn't 'controlling someone.' Having to have a "discuss both sides of an issue and resolve it [without hurting the man's ego]" conversation is...NOT manipulation?

No, it is not manipulation. It's not controlling someone. It's discussion, a balanced, rational approach to problem solving.

So, according to you, when I say "no" to my husband's question about X, I'm being controlling and manipulative, but if I went through a boatload of gyrations, so that he could think that the outcome was as you described, "working for a balanced end," that's not manipulative?

I'm really not sure just how you managed to get that 180 degrees backwards from what I wrote, but you did.

I've decided to bow out of this discussion, as I can't see it going anyplace good.

Probably for the best. Especially with a ending of 'women spend their lives getting large, dumb potentially-dangerous animals to do what they want, and they do it by getting them to think it's their idea.' I can almost see the riding crop in your hands, handling your big dumb animal as you see fit.

Is there any wonder why so, so many Western men retire to Asia?


Stitchawl

[PeterT]

The other week I had a minor accident at an intersection; I claim the light had turned green and I moved forward; unfortunately a car coming the other way (ie at 90 degrees to me) did not stop at the red and hit the front of my car. (That car's driver claims SHE had the green and I went through the red). No witnesses of course, so it's a classic she-said, he-said situation.

My car was towed to the collision reporting center, reports made on the accident, insurance company contacted etc.

Last Thursday I got my car back and they have done a good job on the body-work and wheel alignment. Unfortunately I can't say the same about the remote locking, the linkage between the doors opening and interior lights lighting up, etc.

Today went back to the people who did the repairs, and after 4 technicians including their electrical specialist looking at it, they aren't sure what the problem is

Now have to wait for them to get back to the insurance company and get this all started again. SIGH.

[ProfCrash]

Bummer Peter.

Here is how I will end my participation in the man woman discussion. When we got married, we set up a family account and two personal accounts. Each month we get a certain amount of money deposited into our accounts. We can spend our allowance how we wnat without consulting each other. We tease each other about what we buy (seriously, a vibrating race car chair complete with gear shifting for video games?) but that is it.

We consult each other on major purchases. It has only been five years but we have yet to have a major blow up over money or similar issues.

We are both grown adults who are pretty smart. He handles paying the bills because he is more organized then I am. We do need to sit down and look over our spending and actually develop a budget because we have not been the best with that. We save a good amount but would like to save more and that requires budgeting.

Dating should help you find someone who solves problems in a way that is complimentary to your own method. If you are not finding that person, move on. Cool. But if you are making generic statements like "All women from country X are trained to be manipulative" or "All men are X" then more likely hen not the problem you are having finding the right person is with you. Stereotypes exist for a reason, large swathes of people fit, or used to fit, into them. Not when you fall prey to them you are screwed. People are people and should be treated as such.

Personally, I could not see myself doing well in Japan. I have read a fair amount about the attitude towards women and the trouble women have staying in the work force and choosing their own lives ahead of marriage and a family. I have read about the Manga and some of the more obscene reading that denegrates women. Overall, I don't like the more hidden attitudes toward women that I have read and heard about. All of the Japanese Men I have met have been kind and polite but I struggle with the idea that Japan is so crowded that proper manners are required to function and that everyone behaves like that one the surface.

Stitch's story about his neice entering into an arranged marriage because she was 30 and the same for the man she married is just flat out wrong. Who cares? I didn't get married until I was 38 and that was fine. I can't see marrying someone I don't know because society demands it and if I want to be promoted at work I have to be married.

I can't see being a stay at home Mom, I know me and my personality. I would go nuts. I was actually thrilled when I returned to work after three months of staying home. I love my son but I love the interaction I get at work and the challenges it brings. I love the pay check and what it allows us to do. I know he is in a great preschool and learning and thriving. I know that he spends 3 hours with his Dad in the morning and 4 hours with me in the afternoon. It works for us. Don't tell me that I need to stay at home and control all the finances. Just no. nononononononononononono

Treat people as people and find someone who is a good match for you.

[doubleshuffle]

Men are from Mars, women are from Twix.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Personally, I could not see myself doing well in Japan. I have read a fair amount about the attitude towards women and the trouble women have staying in the work force and choosing their own lives ahead of marriage and a family.

Women have the choice. They 'can' remain in the work force if they so desire it. They can have professional careers if they desire it. My dentist, my GP, and my lawyer were all women when I lived in Japan. It's just that most Japanese women don't want to have professional careers. After age 25 they want to stop working. A few years at home while the babies are growing old enough to go to school, then they are completely free to do what ever they wish to from 7:30am when the kids leave for school until 8-10pm when they come home. They have enough money to do pretty much anything they wish to... take flower arranging classes or tennis lessons, play golf every day, take day trips with friends, learn a new language or musical instrument, etc... anything they want to do... or NOT do if they just don't feel like it that day! Just like being retired, but without having to work 25 years to get it.

I have read about the Manga and some of the more obscene reading that denegrates women.

Yes, there IS manga that denigrates women. But that accounts for less than 10% of all the manga. There are dozens of titles with no sexual content produced for school-aged children, teens, housewives, older folks, etc., etc. Same as the magazines you'd find in any magazine rack in any American city. Only a small percentage is sexual content, and an even smaller percentage is the sort that you describe.

Stitch's story about his neice entering into an arranged marriage because she was 30 and the same for the man she married is just flat out wrong.

Wrong? No... not wrong. Just a different cultural idea than we in the West have been brought up with. Considering that Japan's divorce rate is less than half of that of the US, perhaps it's our ideas that may need some correction?

I can't see marrying someone I don't know because society demands it and if I want to be promoted at work I have to be married.

And it's good that you live in a society that doesn't require that demonstration of stability, because that's what this requirement is all about... Stability and the ability to work together as a team rather than as an individual.

Don't tell me that I need to stay at home and control all the finances. Just no. nononononononononononono

No one would tell you that in Japan. Everyone is free to choose how they want to live their lives regardless of their sex or marital status. But Japan places the good of the group over the good of the individual. To get ahead there, you have to be a part of the group. Very different from the West, where we put such a high value on individualism.


Stitchawl

[ProfCrash]

See, but they are. The women in Japan who stop working at 25 are doing so because that is what has been modelled for them. Your neice-in-law sounds like she married some one she didn't love because it was expected of her and the man she married. If there was real choice then I would guess that your neice would not have married.

I understand that it is a cultural norm, I don't like the culturla norm and I think that it undermines the notion of equality. Women in Japan who want to work and not marry are pressured into marrying and not working. That is not a choice, that is a forced decision and people who choose not to honor that cultural norm are not seen as equals.

Maybe Japan could use a good taste of feminism so that the women and the men have choices that match what they want in their life instead of feeling like they have to conform.

Feminism, at least my brand of feminism, is not about telling women that they have to work and they have to do wait to get married. It is about saying you have a choice to wait to marry until you are ready to get married. You have the choice to pursue a career if you want. You have the right to make the same amount of money as a man and to pursue work in the fields that you want.

It sickens me to see women judged for not marrying or not having kids. It also sickens me to see women judged for staying home with their kids or feeling pressure to return to work. It drives me nuts to see that people look down on men who stay home with their kids.

Let individuals make decisions that are best for them and their families.

So yeah, arranged marriages, although culturally accepted in places around the world, are not something I support. Getting married to provie stability so you can be promoted is stupid. You know now a work shows stability? They show up to work when they are suppose to, work hard, produce a good product and make their company look good. Their maritial status is not an indicator of squat at work.

The value on the group places just as much pressure on an individual to conform and causes a different set of issues then the value on the individual. Both lead to problems and I see a model that encourages wome to give up their careers at 25, which then requires them to find someone to marry who is working so that the woman can continue to eat, wear clothes and the like, to be just as invalid and wrong as disparaging a woman for chosing not to get married and have kids.

[doubleshuffle]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Considering that Japan's divorce rate is less than half of that of the US, perhaps it's our ideas that may need some correction?

I fail to see how a lower divorce rate is supposed to be an indicator for more healthy marriages. It may just as well indicate stronger social pressure to remain in unsatisfying relationships.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

See, but they are. The women in Japan who stop working at 25 are doing so because that is what has been modelled for them.

What gives you that idea?

Your neice-in-law sounds like she married some one she didn't love because it was expected of her and the man she married. If there was real choice then I would guess that your neice would not have married.

Then you guessed incorrectly. In Japan, women do NOT have to get married to succeed in the work place. That's for men only. My niece got married because she didn't want to work any more. Her choice entirely. Getting married was not expected of her, nor did her family put any pressure on her to do so. She was simply tired of going to work every day, tired of going home alone, and chose to do something about it. Sorry, but you are trying to view an Asian culture through Western filters. That simply does not work.

Women in Japan who want to work and not marry are pressured into marrying and not working.

No they are NOT! Where do you get these ideas? Women are NOT pressured into giving up their jobs and getting married. It is only the men who need to be married in order to advance in their companies. This does not apply to the women.

Maybe Japan could use a good taste of feminism

Quite a few Western women in the Feminist Movement have come to Japan to 'free' the Japanese women. The Japanese women listened to them politely, then suggested that they go back to where they came from...

Feminism, at least my brand of feminism, is not about telling women that they have to work and they have to do wait to get married. It is about saying you have a choice to wait to marry until you are ready to get married. You have the choice to pursue a career if you want. You have the right to make the same amount of money as a man and to pursue work in the fields that you want.

Great! It sounds as if you are asking for just what the Japanese women already have now, and have had for the last 50 years! They are NOT forced to get married if they don't want to. They CAN pursue careers if they so desire, ANY career they wish to work at. Japanese women already have these freedoms. Unfortunately for Western women, most Japanese women can choose NOT to work all their lives. They can stop after a few years and live the lives they do chose to live. I think quite a few Western women would love to be able to make such a choice. Unfortunately, due to Western financial situations, most families require two incomes just to pay the bills. That's not the case in Japan.

However, what they are still lacking is equal pay for equal work... just as so many Western women are lacking. This should change for all.

Getting married to provie stability so you can be promoted is stupid. You know now a work shows stability? They show up to work when they are suppose to, work hard, produce a good product and make their company look good. Their maritial status is not an indicator of squat at work.

Stupid? The number of different jobs the average Japanese holds during his or her adult lifetime (after finishing schooling) is 1.7 Can you guess the number of different jobs the average American holds during his or her adult lifetime? The average person born in the latter years of the baby boom (1957-1964) held 11.3 jobs, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Which system is creating a more stable working environment?

As I said before, perhaps we in the West need to reevaluate our thinking because something seems to be missing from the criteria we use.


Stitchawl

[HomeInMyShoes]

Timeout! This is the Lounge and not the Politics and Religion section.