Who controls epub DRM for B&N?

emellaich · 12-12-2010, 06:39 PM

I'm just trying to educate myself on this issue, and was hoping someone else here would have the answer. The thing I'm trying to understand is this: what happens if the DRM provider disappears and who is that provider.

More specifically, if I jump ahead 10 years I would expect to see a different ebook universe. How would it work out for the nook? If B&N is still in business, but Adobe bows out does that affect access to nook ebooks? Or, if B&N bows out but Adobe is still around how does that affect things. It seems to me, that the answer depends on who actually runs/owns the DRM server.

Of course, sharp readers will notice from my profile that I am a Kindle owner. I don't have any special Kindle agenda here, and I'm not trying to pick on the Nook. The Kindle faces similar issues. In their case, Amazon provides both ownership of the format (mobi) and the actual book store. Therefore it all depends on Amazon. If Amazon changes its business model or format (as they have in the past) then their ebooks will be abandoned. I'm just wondering how this scenario plays out in the Nook world.

Thanks in advance for educating me.

ATDrake · 12-12-2010, 06:57 PM

B&N run their own servers as they outright own the DRM-scheme they use.

Adobe also run their own servers, but seem to license out the tech to other people to run compatible servers to handle their own downloads (Kobo, Overdrive). Though maybe it all just gets routed to a central Adobe server under different domain names.

As far as B&N/ADE-DRM books go, the twain shall never meet and one going down shouldn't affect the other.

The problem will be when the provider of whichever flavour of DRM you use no longer supports it.

It used to be that the B&N-DRM (which started out as the eReader-DRM which they bought) was pretty robust in this regard and you could just keep using your files regardless, but now B&N seems to have been trying to lock people in more to their apps by requiring login info before the apps will work (as far as mobile apps go; the actual devices and PC/Mac apps don't yet have these new restrictions, I think).

However, unless they do something to change the actual encryption of the files, they'll still respond very well to stripping without any extra tools beyond Python and work perfectly well with older versions of apps, even if the future ones balk at opening them. And of course any previously downloaded files can be easily stripped with the old tools even if they change something in the new downloads.

As for ADE, Adobe actually used to have an older style of DRM which they changed at some point. People who didn't switch over their old files to the new version in time lost all access and could no longer open their old files, even on properly registered devices.

This is a bit of a tricky point, because liberating Adobe stuff requires getting info from properly registered software to use on a file compatible with it.

I think the moral of this story is strip early, strip often. No matter where your books are coming from and how "safe" you think they are. Because you just never know.

Hope this helps.

dallas · 12-12-2010, 07:12 PM

BN worked with Adobe for thier encryption scheme, though it isn't part of ADE and isn't managed by adobe. In terms of what happens 5 or 10 years from now? Its a moot point. Either the device will support what will then be legacy encryption for books bought today, the books will be replaced seemlessly from the cloud with copies using current encryption methods as hardware is upgradeded if the DRM scheme or format is orphaned a way to strip the DRM or convert the work will be readily available and it will be legal.

If you look at the similar threads below, you'll see that DRM never lasts long. That goes for any kind of media really.

I know a business in town that does a small but steady business converting "out of print" Betamax and VHS movies to DVD.

edit:see post above for more info RE:Adobe.

wallcraft · 12-12-2010, 07:25 PM

B&N is providing the DRM on their ePubs. Since it is password based (credit card name and number), the server going away isn't quite as much of an issue as for DRM where devices are registered. However, it can be difficult to remember CC#'s for expired credit cards and if B&N stopped selling ebooks new devices would likely not support it - so the DRM does age eventually.

Adobe has the right to use the identical DRM, and their mobile ADE software can read B&N ebooks (if you provide the CC info). However, most actual implementations of mobile ADE have chosen not to allow B&N ePubs. There are reports that Aldiko 2.0 for Android will be able to read B&N ePubs, and this may break the logjam. It is a shame that Bluefire (to pick on the best iPhone mobile ADE based app) does not support B&N ePubs, but their business model is based on getting money from independent ebookstores.

DRM isn't there for your benefit, and will always screw you if you give it long enough. So the only safe approach is to immediately strip DRM and then make backups of the DRM-free ebooks.

Nate the great · 12-12-2010, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATDrake

As far as B&N/ADE-DRM books go, the twain shall never meet and one going down shouldn't affect the other.

The twain have already met. Any ebookstore can now use B&N's DRM. And any e-reader developer could already use B&N's DRM.

ATDrake · 12-12-2010, 08:24 PM

I meant in terms of one being fatally dependent on the other, server-wise. The new ADE SDK apparently offers the option for B&N-DRM support, but no one really seems to have taken them up on it.

Besides maybe JetBook Lite, but I think they got their licensing for B&N and ADE separately.

SCION · 12-12-2010, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATDrake

...
I think the moral of this story is strip early, strip often. No matter where your books are coming from and how "safe" you think they are. Because you just never know...

Good advice.

DuncanWatson · 12-13-2010, 12:40 AM

In B&N's case you don't need an authorized client to strip. The key is so easy to generate that it is very silly. For ADE get the key ready and be prepared.

GreenMonkey · 12-13-2010, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wallcraft

DRM isn't there for your benefit, and will always screw you if you give it long enough. So the only safe approach is to immediately strip DRM and then make backups of the DRM-free ebooks.

That's it right there. The few DRM'd books I've bought, I try to strip DRM as early as possible.

Micah · 12-16-2010, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wallcraft

B&N is providing the DRM on their ePubs. Since it is password based (credit card name and number), the server going away isn't quite as much of an issue as for DRM where devices are registered. However, it can be difficult to remember CC#'s for expired credit cards and if B&N stopped selling ebooks new devices would likely not support it - so the DRM does age eventually.

Adobe has the right to use the identical DRM, and their mobile ADE software can read B&N ebooks (if you provide the CC info). However, most actual implementations of mobile ADE have chosen not to allow B&N ePubs. There are reports that Aldiko 2.0 for Android will be able to read B&N ePubs, and this may break the logjam. It is a shame that Bluefire (to pick on the best iPhone mobile ADE based app) does not support B&N ePubs, but their business model is based on getting money from independent ebookstores.

DRM isn't there for your benefit, and will always screw you if you give it long enough. So the only safe approach is to immediately strip DRM and then make backups of the DRM-free ebooks.

FYI, Bluefire Reader *does* support Nook books. In fact you can buy them on the BN site on your ithingy and then directly download the book you just bought to Bluefire Reader. The first time you open a Nook book, BFR will ask you for the username and password to unlock the book. BN uses the <Firstname>space<Lastname> in your billing info as the username, and the 16 digits of your credit card as the password (I know, crazy shit).

After you do that once, you don't have to again. FYI, the app does not store the actual user/pass, but instead an encrypted "hash" of the combo which is the "actual" unlock key.

BTW, I usually only read the "bluefire reader app" thread on Mobileread, just happened to be traipsing about other forums today and saw this post.

wallcraft · 12-16-2010, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micah

FYI, Bluefire Reader *does* support Nook books. In fact you can buy them on the BN site on your ithingy and then directly download the book you just bought to Bluefire Reader.

Thanks for the correction. That is very good news.

lionel47 · 12-16-2010, 07:58 AM

Yes, DRM sucks. I am putting in a case with Adobe right now because I read on more than six devices. What a pain. Who cares how many devices I read on? I paid for the $%^&* books!

lionel47 · 12-16-2010, 08:20 AM

Just got off a chat with Adobe. Here is the dialog. Names have been changed to protect the whales.

Thank you for choosing Adobe. A representative will be with you shortly. Your estimated wait time is 1 minute(s) and 2 second(s) or longer as there are 1 customer(s) in line ahead of you.

You are now chatting with Anabelle.

Anabelle: Hello. Welcome to Adobe Customer Service.

Me: hello

Anabelle: Hi Lionel .

Me: did you see my question?

Anabelle: As I understand that you want to create a new account to authorize the product with more than 6 devices, am I correct?

Me: no...i don't want to create a new account...i want more devices on my current account

Anabelle: I'll be glad to check and help you with this.

Anabelle: Lionel, you can authorize the product with our Adobe ID with 6 devices.

Anabelle: If you want more than that you need to unauthorize and authorize again with the new devices.

Me: yes...i have more than 6 devices...i have to unauthorize one of the other six?

Anabelle: That's correct.

Me: but i own more than 6 devices...why can;t i add a 7th?

Anabelle: Lionel, this is how it works and you can authorize up to 6 devices.

Me: there is no flexibility in this? there are no exceptions to the rule?

Anabelle: Sorry for the wait. Please do stay online.

Me: ok

Anabelle: Lionel, if any one of the device is not working and unable to unauthorize the product we can make an exception on that.

Anabelle: Is there anything else I may assist you with?

Me: can i add the seventh device now?

Anabelle: Since you authorized the product with 6 devices you won't be able to add the seventh one.

Anabelle: You need to unauthorize one of the device.

12-12-2010, 06:39 PM	#1
emellaich Wizard Posts: 1,101 Karma: 4388403 Join Date: Oct 2007 Device: Palm>Ebookman>IPaq>Axim>Cybook>Kndl2>IPAD>Kndl3SO>Voyager>Oasis	Who controls epub DRM for B&N? I'm just trying to educate myself on this issue, and was hoping someone else here would have the answer. The thing I'm trying to understand is this: what happens if the DRM provider disappears and who is that provider. More specifically, if I jump ahead 10 years I would expect to see a different ebook universe. How would it work out for the nook? If B&N is still in business, but Adobe bows out does that affect access to nook ebooks? Or, if B&N bows out but Adobe is still around how does that affect things. It seems to me, that the answer depends on who actually runs/owns the DRM server. Of course, sharp readers will notice from my profile that I am a Kindle owner. I don't have any special Kindle agenda here, and I'm not trying to pick on the Nook. The Kindle faces similar issues. In their case, Amazon provides both ownership of the format (mobi) and the actual book store. Therefore it all depends on Amazon. If Amazon changes its business model or format (as they have in the past) then their ebooks will be abandoned. I'm just wondering how this scenario plays out in the Nook world. Thanks in advance for educating me.

12-12-2010, 07:12 PM	#3
dallas Member Posts: 21 Karma: 552 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Kindle, Nookcolor, iPod Touch	BN worked with Adobe for thier encryption scheme, though it isn't part of ADE and isn't managed by adobe. In terms of what happens 5 or 10 years from now? Its a moot point. Either the device will support what will then be legacy encryption for books bought today, the books will be replaced seemlessly from the cloud with copies using current encryption methods as hardware is upgradeded if the DRM scheme or format is orphaned a way to strip the DRM or convert the work will be readily available and it will be legal. If you look at the similar threads below, you'll see that DRM never lasts long. That goes for any kind of media really. I know a business in town that does a small but steady business converting "out of print" Betamax and VHS movies to DVD. edit:see post above for more info RE:Adobe. Last edited by dallas; 12-12-2010 at 07:17 PM.

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12-12-2010, 06:57 PM	#2
ATDrake Wizzard Posts: 11,517 Karma: 33048258 Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Roundworld Device: Kindle 2 International, Sony PRS-T1, BlackBerry PlayBook, Acer Iconia	B&N run their own servers as they outright own the DRM-scheme they use. Adobe also run their own servers, but seem to license out the tech to other people to run compatible servers to handle their own downloads (Kobo, Overdrive). Though maybe it all just gets routed to a central Adobe server under different domain names. As far as B&N/ADE-DRM books go, the twain shall never meet and one going down shouldn't affect the other. The problem will be when the provider of whichever flavour of DRM you use no longer supports it. It used to be that the B&N-DRM (which started out as the eReader-DRM which they bought) was pretty robust in this regard and you could just keep using your files regardless, but now B&N seems to have been trying to lock people in more to their apps by requiring login info before the apps will work (as far as mobile apps go; the actual devices and PC/Mac apps don't yet have these new restrictions, I think). However, unless they do something to change the actual encryption of the files, they'll still respond very well to stripping without any extra tools beyond Python and work perfectly well with older versions of apps, even if the future ones balk at opening them. And of course any previously downloaded files can be easily stripped with the old tools even if they change something in the new downloads. As for ADE, Adobe actually used to have an older style of DRM which they changed at some point. People who didn't switch over their old files to the new version in time lost all access and could no longer open their old files, even on properly registered devices. This is a bit of a tricky point, because liberating Adobe stuff requires getting info from properly registered software to use on a file compatible with it. I think the moral of this story is strip early, strip often. No matter where your books are coming from and how "safe" you think they are. Because you just never know. Hope this helps.

12-12-2010, 07:25 PM	#4
wallcraft reader Posts: 6,975 Karma: 5183568 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mississippi, USA Device: Kindle 3, Kobo Glo HD	B&N is providing the DRM on their ePubs. Since it is password based (credit card name and number), the server going away isn't quite as much of an issue as for DRM where devices are registered. However, it can be difficult to remember CC#'s for expired credit cards and if B&N stopped selling ebooks new devices would likely not support it - so the DRM does age eventually. Adobe has the right to use the identical DRM, and their mobile ADE software can read B&N ebooks (if you provide the CC info). However, most actual implementations of mobile ADE have chosen not to allow B&N ePubs. There are reports that Aldiko 2.0 for Android will be able to read B&N ePubs, and this may break the logjam. It is a shame that Bluefire (to pick on the best iPhone mobile ADE based app) does not support B&N ePubs, but their business model is based on getting money from independent ebookstores. DRM isn't there for your benefit, and will always screw you if you give it long enough. So the only safe approach is to immediately strip DRM and then make backups of the DRM-free ebooks.

12-12-2010, 08:24 PM	#6
ATDrake Wizzard Posts: 11,517 Karma: 33048258 Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Roundworld Device: Kindle 2 International, Sony PRS-T1, BlackBerry PlayBook, Acer Iconia	I meant in terms of one being fatally dependent on the other, server-wise. The new ADE SDK apparently offers the option for B&N-DRM support, but no one really seems to have taken them up on it. Besides maybe JetBook Lite, but I think they got their licensing for B&N and ADE separately.

12-13-2010, 12:40 AM	#8
DuncanWatson Kindle Convert Posts: 190 Karma: 62704 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Woodinville, WA, USA Device: Kindle Paperwhite, Nook (all)	In B&N's case you don't need an authorized client to strip. The key is so easy to generate that it is very silly. For ADE get the key ready and be prepared.

12-16-2010, 07:58 AM	#12
lionel47 Addict Posts: 361 Karma: 170 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Device: B&N Nook, Nook Color	Yes, DRM sucks. I am putting in a case with Adobe right now because I read on more than six devices. What a pain. Who cares how many devices I read on? I paid for the $%^&* books!

12-16-2010, 08:20 AM	#13
lionel47 Addict Posts: 361 Karma: 170 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Device: B&N Nook, Nook Color	Just got off a chat with Adobe. Here is the dialog. Names have been changed to protect the whales. Thank you for choosing Adobe. A representative will be with you shortly. Your estimated wait time is 1 minute(s) and 2 second(s) or longer as there are 1 customer(s) in line ahead of you. You are now chatting with Anabelle. Anabelle: Hello. Welcome to Adobe Customer Service. Me: hello Anabelle: Hi Lionel . Me: did you see my question? Anabelle: As I understand that you want to create a new account to authorize the product with more than 6 devices, am I correct? Me: no...i don't want to create a new account...i want more devices on my current account Anabelle: I'll be glad to check and help you with this. Anabelle: Lionel, you can authorize the product with our Adobe ID with 6 devices. Anabelle: If you want more than that you need to unauthorize and authorize again with the new devices. Me: yes...i have more than 6 devices...i have to unauthorize one of the other six? Anabelle: That's correct. Me: but i own more than 6 devices...why can;t i add a 7th? Anabelle: Lionel, this is how it works and you can authorize up to 6 devices. Me: there is no flexibility in this? there are no exceptions to the rule? Anabelle: Sorry for the wait. Please do stay online. Me: ok Anabelle: Lionel, if any one of the device is not working and unable to unauthorize the product we can make an exception on that. Anabelle: Is there anything else I may assist you with? Me: can i add the seventh device now? Anabelle: Since you authorized the product with 6 devices you won't be able to add the seventh one. Anabelle: You need to unauthorize one of the device.

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