"American Gods" discussion

Ea · 07-17-2010, 03:35 PM

A discussion thread for "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman

It's the second time I've read it, and it was just as enjoyable as the first time. I like the idea of imagining what would happen to the old gods of the old world if they somehow was transported/"translated" to the new world. I have a great interest in Norse mythology, and Odin as one of the main characters were a big draw for me (I find him one of the most fascinating of the old gods). I can't speak for the other gods or mythologies, but Gaiman's treatment of Norse mythology is sensitive and shows a good understanding of the characters of the gods - and I definitely liked his take on an American version of Odin and Loke. Having them doing that con is such a brilliant idea.

I think this is one of Gaiman's most adult works. The tone is rather dark and serious and I liked that.

What I especially loved about the book is that there were lot to think abut and ponder while reading. Gaiman isn't giving everything away - a lot is "hidden" away in crevices in the text on the page. You have to think about it, what happens, who the characters are, what everything really means, to understand what is happening. A bit like a puzzle. I really enjoyed that. Of course the story can be read at a bit more superficial level, but if you feel like digging for it, there's a lot more to it.

On the Neil Gaiman discussion boards I have read a discussion about who is Shadow? AFAIK Neil Gaiman has never told the public what he thought about the Shadow character, but given that he's Wednesday's - Odin's - son, some have guessed at Balder. I'm not sure myself, doesn't fit. I'm still not sure what to think of him and his role in the story. In a way I wonder if he's a new incarnation of Odin... For example, given his wake for Odin, which is basically Odin's original sacrifice of himself to himself - repeated, again.

Shadow spends a good deal of time in Lakeside and it's a rather important place. Wednesday even installs him there. Why? Because it illuminates something about Wednesday - or Lakeside illuminates something about Shadow - or because Lakeside illuminates something about Shadow? Or something else entirely?

Why the name Shadow? While reading, I tried to note whenever we learn something about him and it's precious little. He's a sort of a guide character but has little substance when you look closer. He's coffee-and-cream coloured, dark hair, a big man (this is noted again and again, numerous times - why?), loves Laura, and he refrains from reflecting deeply upon the tasks his employer gives him - yet he doesn't appear stupid.

What did you think about transporting - translating - the old gods to America? I remember reading something where Neil Gaiman explained he wanted to create American versions of the gods, as he imagined them having evolved in America, having been brought over trough people who still believed.

And... who's the nameless god that everyone forgets?

jgaiser · 07-17-2010, 05:15 PM

I had a hard time getting through the book the first time I read it, about a year ago. This time, however, I powered through it in about 5 days and thoroughly enjoyed it. Of his list of books, I've only read this one and "Good Omens".

I've come to the conclusion after the second reading, that the American Gods were all much different than their original counterparts. At the end of the novel, when Shadow speaks with Odin:

"I saw you die," said Shadow. "I stood vigil for your body. You tried to destroy so much for power. You would have sacrificed so much for yourself. You did that."

"I did not do that."

"Wednesday did. He was you."

"He was me, yes. But I am not him."

The rest also changed/became something different as they adapted to America.

Ea · 07-17-2010, 05:38 PM

I can probably only speak about my understanding of Odin, but even if I saw the American Odin as coarser, a lesser "version" (like mentioned in your quote) and more of an opportunist than the Old World Odin, the core of the character is still the same. A lack of honour, perhaps, but even the old Norse Odin was not especially nice guy.

What did you think about Shadow and his love of Laura?

edbro · 07-17-2010, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ea

What did you think about Shadow and his love of Laura?

I had a hard time with his almost acceptance of his wife's unfaithfulness. Yes, there were a couple of passages where it seemed to bother him a bit. But, I know if it had been me, I would have been devastated.

He also seemed to be too willing to do things or go places that he didn't understand. I felt like Wednesday could have told him to go jump off a bridge and he would have just shrugged his shoulders and said "okay!".

recluse · 07-17-2010, 06:06 PM

It's been awhile since I have read "American Gods" and I am probably way off base in this, but I tend to believe that Shadow may be Thor. Or the "shadow" of Thor, to be more precise.
His size and coloring are most likely from his mother.

Ea · 07-17-2010, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by recluse

It's been awhile since I have read "American Gods" and I am probably way off base in this, but I tend to believe that Shadow may be Thor. Or the "shadow" of Thor, to be more precise.
His size and coloring are most likely from his mother.

His being Thor was a passing thought for me - the only thing that might fit is his size really. At least the Norse Thor as I know him has too much of a temper, and he's not as bright as Shadow. Also Shadow seems to have little interest is anybody than himself, his wife, and his employer (and father) - again not like Thor. I'd still rather say Shadow's a shadow of Odin - a reflection perhaps

Ea · 07-17-2010, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edbro

I had a hard time with his almost acceptance of his wife's unfaithfulness. Yes, there were a couple of passages where it seemed to bother him a bit. But, I know if it had been me, I would have been devastated.

He also seemed to be too willing to do things or go places that he didn't understand. I felt like Wednesday could have told him to go jump off a bridge and he would have just shrugged his shoulders and said "okay!".

Yes, his passivity was note-worthy. But I'm personally not sure how to interpret it. He was a complacent, big guy - and...? It seems to mean something for the story, but so far I haven't figured out what exactly.

jgaiser · 07-17-2010, 06:35 PM

Shadow -- My impression is that his temper got him into prison and he learned in prison to keep his head down and stay out of trouble. He drank the mead and made his promise.

My first impression of Shadow (after digging around on Wikipedia -- I really know nothing about Norse mythology), that he was Balder, except that Loki (Low Key Lyesmith) killed Balder and of course that doesn't happen.

recluse · 07-17-2010, 06:45 PM

Let me just throw this idea into the mix:

Who would Thor be if he were completely disconnected from his own past history? Broken by modern society, a warrior without a battle to fight for so very long. Tamed. Politically correct. Americanized. A god without knowledge of his own godhood.

Ea · 07-17-2010, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Shadow -- My impression is that his temper got him into prison and he learned in prison to keep his head down and stay out of trouble. He drank the mead and made his promise.

My first impression of Shadow (after digging around on Wikipedia -- I really know nothing about Norse mythology), that he was Balder, except that Loki (Low Key Lyesmith) killed Balder and of course that doesn't happen.

Well, in Norse mythology, Balder's brother Høder kills him (adviced by Loke) - which means they share the guilt equally. And without Balder's death, no Ragnarok. Which might superficially sound nice, but in reality means that the world does not evolve and change as it should. Loke is essentially the one who brings change and renewal - and I don't see how Shadow fits in there as Balder.

Also, Balder is the "white" or "golden" god - just the description of Shadow goes against that. And Baldur is somewhere described as being good and perfect and thus "is not able to act as judge of human behavior" - i.e. he is too good and too perfect to judge human behaviour sensibly.

In mythology, Frigg, the mother of Balder, extracts a promise of all living things not to hurt him. It's an important part of the myth, but I don't think that fits wit the story either...

Ea · 07-17-2010, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by recluse

Let me just throw this idea into the mix:

Who would Thor be if he were completely disconnected from his own past history? Broken by modern society, a warrior without a battle to fight for so very long. Tamed. Politically correct. Americanized. A god without knowledge of his own godhood.

Wednesday mentions at some point that (the American) Thor killed himself (in the thirties, I think).

In my understanding, Thor is a protector more than a warrior. He's the thunder god who brings rain and fight jotuns to protect middle earth. Thor does not essentially fight battles - he leaves them to Odin and other warrior gods.

In any case, I don't see that any of the gods in American Gods have been tamed by political correctness. By American money and greed, by the church of capitalism, perhaps.

I think that what you suggest could be summed up by "sanitised" - is that correct? I simply can't see Shadow as an Americanised "sanitised" Thor. You may yet convince me, but you'll need some more arguments

recluse · 07-17-2010, 07:36 PM

Sanitized is exactly what I was trying to say.
Thank you.
My describing Thor as a warrior was colored by his temper.

As I said earlier, it has been awhile since I've read "American Gods". I will reread it at the first opportunity to see if I can uncover exactly why I believe Shadow is Thor.

It has been a pleasure chatting with you, Ea.
I hope to do so again.

Ea · 07-17-2010, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by recluse

Sanitized is exactly what I was trying to say.
Thank you.
My describing Thor as a warrior was colored by his temper.

Yes. But Shadow appears almost the antithesis temperamentally. Another word I would use about Thor but not Shadow, is impulsive.

What make Shadow stand out IMHO is the lack of personality for a main character. He is a shadow character - but again, a sanitised Thor...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by recluse

As I said earlier, it has been awhile since I've read "American Gods". I will reread it at the first opportunity to see if I can uncover exactly why I believe Shadow is Thor.

It has been a pleasure chatting with you, Ea.
I hope to do so again.

Likewise

cearbhallain · 07-18-2010, 12:29 AM

Quote:

I can probably only speak about my understanding of Odin, but even if I saw the American Odin as coarser, a lesser "version" (like mentioned in your quote) and more of an opportunist than the Old World Odin, the core of the character is still the same. A lack of honour, perhaps, but even the old Norse Odin was not especially nice guy.

To go back a bit in the discussion. When I read the book, several years ago, I thought Odin was referring to Wednesday as being an Aspect. God's do have them

Also, this was the first Gaiman I read. I've read several others since, and I'm always disappointed, you're idea that it's his most "adult" story could explain this.

jgaiser · 07-18-2010, 10:33 AM

A bit more about Shadow as Balder. Searching around on the web, i find this snippet:

According to legend, Balder was concerned with his own death, so his mother extracted an oath from every creature, object, and force in nature, to never harm Balder. However, she forgot about the mistletoe, and Loki, who was jealous of Balder, tricked Balder's blind brother Hod into stabbing Balder with mistletoe.

Late in the book, we have Mr World (Loki) speaking to Laura:

"Yes," said Mr. World. "I know. When this is all done with, I guess I'll sharpen a stick of mistletoe and go down to the ash tree, and ram it through his eye. Now. My stick, please."

Comments?

07-17-2010, 03:35 PM	#1
Ea Wizard Posts: 3,490 Karma: 5239563 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Denmark Device: Kindle 3\|iPad air\|iPhone 4S	"American Gods" discussion A discussion thread for "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman It's the second time I've read it, and it was just as enjoyable as the first time. I like the idea of imagining what would happen to the old gods of the old world if they somehow was transported/"translated" to the new world. I have a great interest in Norse mythology, and Odin as one of the main characters were a big draw for me (I find him one of the most fascinating of the old gods). I can't speak for the other gods or mythologies, but Gaiman's treatment of Norse mythology is sensitive and shows a good understanding of the characters of the gods - and I definitely liked his take on an American version of Odin and Loke. Having them doing that con is such a brilliant idea. I think this is one of Gaiman's most adult works. The tone is rather dark and serious and I liked that. What I especially loved about the book is that there were lot to think abut and ponder while reading. Gaiman isn't giving everything away - a lot is "hidden" away in crevices in the text on the page. You have to think about it, what happens, who the characters are, what everything really means, to understand what is happening. A bit like a puzzle. I really enjoyed that. Of course the story can be read at a bit more superficial level, but if you feel like digging for it, there's a lot more to it. On the Neil Gaiman discussion boards I have read a discussion about *who is Shadow? AFAIK Neil Gaiman has never told the public what he thought about the Shadow character, but given that he's Wednesday's - Odin's - son, some have guessed at Balder. I'm not sure myself, doesn't fit. I'm still not sure what to think of him and his role in the story. In a way I wonder if he's a new incarnation of Odin... For example, given his wake for Odin, which is basically Odin's original sacrifice of himself to himself - repeated, again. Shadow spends a good deal of time in Lakeside and it's a rather important place. Wednesday even installs him there. Why? Because it illuminates something about Wednesday - or Lakeside illuminates something about Shadow - or because Lakeside illuminates something about Shadow? Or something else entirely? Why the name Shadow? While reading, I tried to note whenever we learn something about him and it's precious little. He's a sort of a guide character but has little substance when you look closer. He's coffee-and-cream coloured, dark hair, a big man* (this is noted again and again, numerous times - why?), loves Laura, and he refrains from reflecting deeply upon the tasks his employer gives him - yet he doesn't appear stupid. What did you think about transporting - translating - the old gods to America? I remember reading something where Neil Gaiman explained he wanted to create American versions of the gods, as he imagined them having evolved in America, having been brought over trough people who still believed. And... who's the nameless god that everyone forgets?

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07-17-2010, 05:15 PM	#2
jgaiser Omnivorous Posts: 3,281 Karma: 27978909 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Rural NW Oregon Device: Kindle Voyage, Kindle Fire HD, Kindle 3, KPW1	I had a hard time getting through the book the first time I read it, about a year ago. This time, however, I powered through it in about 5 days and thoroughly enjoyed it. Of his list of books, I've only read this one and "Good Omens". I've come to the conclusion after the second reading, that the American Gods were all much different than their original counterparts. At the end of the novel, when Shadow speaks with Odin: "I saw you die," said Shadow. "I stood vigil for your body. You tried to destroy so much for power. You would have sacrificed so much for yourself. You did that." "I did not do that." "Wednesday did. He was you." "He was me, yes. But I am not him." The rest also changed/became something different as they adapted to America.

07-17-2010, 05:38 PM	#3
Ea Wizard Posts: 3,490 Karma: 5239563 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Denmark Device: Kindle 3\|iPad air\|iPhone 4S	I can probably only speak about my understanding of Odin, but even if I saw the American Odin as coarser, a lesser "version" (like mentioned in your quote) and more of an opportunist than the Old World Odin, the core of the character is still the same. A lack of honour, perhaps, but even the old Norse Odin was not especially nice guy. What did you think about Shadow and his love of Laura?

07-17-2010, 06:06 PM	#5
recluse Banned Posts: 3,724 Karma: 535488 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: the Mortuary Device: Kindle 2	It's been awhile since I have read "American Gods" and I am probably way off base in this, but I tend to believe that Shadow may be Thor. Or the "shadow" of Thor, to be more precise. His size and coloring are most likely from his mother.

07-17-2010, 06:35 PM	#8
jgaiser Omnivorous Posts: 3,281 Karma: 27978909 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Rural NW Oregon Device: Kindle Voyage, Kindle Fire HD, Kindle 3, KPW1	Shadow -- My impression is that his temper got him into prison and he learned in prison to keep his head down and stay out of trouble. He drank the mead and made his promise. My first impression of Shadow (after digging around on Wikipedia -- I really know nothing about Norse mythology), that he was Balder, except that Loki (Low Key Lyesmith) killed Balder and of course that doesn't happen.

07-17-2010, 06:45 PM	#9
recluse Banned Posts: 3,724 Karma: 535488 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: the Mortuary Device: Kindle 2	Let me just throw this idea into the mix: Who would Thor be if he were completely disconnected from his own past history? Broken by modern society, a warrior without a battle to fight for so very long. Tamed. Politically correct. Americanized. A god without knowledge of his own godhood.

07-17-2010, 07:36 PM	#12
recluse Banned Posts: 3,724 Karma: 535488 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: the Mortuary Device: Kindle 2	Sanitized is exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you. My describing Thor as a warrior was colored by his temper. As I said earlier, it has been awhile since I've read "American Gods". I will reread it at the first opportunity to see if I can uncover exactly why I believe Shadow is Thor. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, Ea. I hope to do so again.

07-18-2010, 10:33 AM	#15
jgaiser Omnivorous Posts: 3,281 Karma: 27978909 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Rural NW Oregon Device: Kindle Voyage, Kindle Fire HD, Kindle 3, KPW1	A bit more about Shadow as Balder. Searching around on the web, i find this snippet: According to legend, Balder was concerned with his own death, so his mother extracted an oath from every creature, object, and force in nature, to never harm Balder. However, she forgot about the mistletoe, and Loki, who was jealous of Balder, tricked Balder's blind brother Hod into stabbing Balder with mistletoe. Late in the book, we have Mr World (Loki) speaking to Laura: "Yes," said Mr. World. "I know. When this is all done with, I guess I'll sharpen a stick of mistletoe and go down to the ash tree, and ram it through his eye. Now. My stick, please." Comments?

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