LCD vs. e-ink

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I thought of another reason why people might want to argue over what makes a device an ereader: location in stores. I mean even if most prefer to buy online, some like to see how the device works before they buy it. Today the ereader section has only E-ink. Tomorrow...

And you get a variant of what can happen in a bookstore, when a title that fits more than one category gets shelved. Where does it get put?

A dedicated reader like a Sony Reader or nook is an easy call. A device like an iPad which can display ebooks but can do other things is another matter. But for the most part, consumer electronics tend to be in the same area, so finding the alternatives won't be that hard. And I think most folks will have a general idea of what they are looking for going in, and simply want to see one in person, so I don't see it being a huge issue.
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Dennis

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

But for the most part, consumer electronics tend to be in the same area, so finding the alternatives won't be that hard. And I think most folks will have a general idea of what they are looking for going in, and simply want to see one in person, so I don't see it being a huge issue.

Yes, but to get an idea whether you prefer E-ink or LCD, the best would be to have them side-by-side. Also you would need the same content, that should mean books and magazines, and probably even comics. And there is a higher chance that the staff will know how to operate an LCD rather than an E-ink.

This is not a problem for the people who know what they are looking for, but for those who want to buy their first ereader, first impression counts the most.

Plus my point was that as we get more and more LCD color readers, eventually store managers will get the fact that they can go in the reader section, and depending on sales, they might decide that most E-ink devices aren't worth the space on the shelf. If enough people start saying that if it has LCD then it's not a real reader, the shelf space might be reserved for E-ink a while longer.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Yes, but to get an idea whether you prefer E-ink or LCD, the best would be to have them side-by-side. Also you would need the same content, that should mean books and magazines, and probably even comics. And there is a higher chance that the staff will know how to operate an LCD rather than an E-ink.

Given the attempted simplicity of dedicated reader interfaces, I don't see a big issue with store staff not knowing how to do the basics on an eInk device. The device manufacturer wants something the user can pick up, fiddle with, and figure out without a manual or assistance. That may not be what they actually produce, but is likely to be a design goal.

This is not a problem for the people who know what they are looking for, but for those who want to buy their first ereader, first impression counts the most.

Possibly. But I think it likely that the majority of folks buying their first ereader won't walk in knowing nothing whatsoever and making the choice based in what attracts them in the store. There are too many online sources of information and reviews to give them a general idea of what's out there, and I expect most buyers to have at least some idea of what is out there and what they might prefer. Hands on comparison won't be eInk vs LCD so much as "I want an eInk reader. Which one best suits me?" or "I want a tablet to read ebooks and do other things. iPad or Android model?"

Plus my point was that as we get more and more LCD color readers, eventually store managers will get the fact that they can go in the reader section, and depending on sales, they might decide that most E-ink devices aren't worth the space on the shelf. If enough people start saying that if it has LCD then it's not a real reader, the shelf space might be reserved for E-ink a while longer.

Assuming there is a "reader" section.

But retail shelf space is allocated based on what sells. If people buy eInk, eInk will get shelf space. The above seems to presume that LCD will win the retail battle, as far more people will prefer it to eInk. I'm not sure that's the case you want to make.
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Dennis

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Possibly. But I think it likely that the majority of folks buying their first ereader won't walk in knowing nothing whatsoever and making the choice based in what attracts them in the store. There are too many online sources of information and reviews to give them a general idea of what's out there, and I expect most buyers to have at least some idea of what is out there and what they might prefer.

Yes, google "ereader", and you get a million results. But you have to know that you want one first, and that they are there.
When I get the urge to spend, usually around my birthday, I might wander in an electronics store, and see what they have. At the beginning of september I walked in such a store, and saw ereaders. I had seen an ereader in a shop almost two years before (one model, looking cheap, too expensive, meant for unfamiliar formats) which didn't make a good impression. Now back to the present of two months ago, I was presented with options, and left to wonder if I actually need wifi and touchscreen. With no staff members in sight, after looking at them for a good half hour and still not knowing what to buy, just knowing that I wanted one, I went home to get the expert opinion of the internet.

Hands on comparison won't be eInk vs LCD so much as "I want an eInk reader. Which one best suits me?" or "I want a tablet to read ebooks and do other things. iPad or Android model?"

I'm an impulse buyer. Faced with the option of E-Ink vs LCD, I would have went with LCD, simply because I knew about LCD, and didn't know about E-ink.

The above seems to presume that LCD will win the retail battle, as for more people will prefer it to eInk. I'm not sure that's the case you want to make.

Pocketbook's new models include the 602 (6", wifi, Linux E-ink), the 603 (602 + wacom + 3G) and the IQ (7", wifi, Android TFT).
Considering the fact that that in Europe they sell for 199, 269 and 169 Euros, and the fact that you can get android apps for the IQ (cheapest of the three), yes, that is the case that I am making.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I'm an impulse buyer. Faced with the option of E-Ink vs LCD, I would have went with LCD, simply because I knew about LCD, and didn't know about E-ink

If I happen to come to a high street shop to buy a new gadget and saw two absolutely different ones and the other one is an unknown entity and more expensive...I would go home and do a very good research. Cannot afford to buy on impulse then regret wasting money, on the other hand I would prefer to spend more money and love it then spend less and hate while all the time knowing there is something much better that I could buy...

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Yes, google "ereader", and you get a million results. But you have to know that you want one first, and that they are there.

Yes. How does that happen?

Consider the number of readers of MobileRead who got here because they heard about ebooks and devces to read them, and wanted to learn more.

When I get the urge to spend, usually around my birthday, I might wander in an electronics store, and see what they have. At the beginning of september I walked in such a store, and saw ereaders. I had seen an ereader in a shop almost two years before (one model, looking cheap, too expensive, meant for unfamiliar formats) which didn't make a good impression. Now back to the present of two months ago, I was presented with options, and left to wonder if I actually need wifi and touchscreen. With no staff members in sight, after looking at them for a good half hour and still not knowing what to buy, just knowing that I wanted one, I went home to get the expert opinion of the internet.

You aren't the only one like that. Retail, especially in consumer electronics, is brutally competitive. Many retailers run thinly staffed in consequence. There have been occasions when I've been tempted to appear to be walking out with merchandise I didn't pay for, simply to get someone's attention.

I do not assume I will find a sales staffer to ask questions of, or that one I do find will know the answers.

I'm an impulse buyer. Faced with the option of E-Ink vs LCD, I would have went with LCD, simply because I knew about LCD, and didn't know about E-ink.

I'm a modified impulse buyer. My selection of an instance of a class may be impulse, but I'll probably know something about the class.

Pocketbook's new models include the 602 (6", wifi, Linux E-ink), the 603 (602 + wacom + 3G) and the IQ (7", wifi, Android TFT).
Considering the fact that that in Europe they sell for 199, 269 and 169 Euros, and the fact that you can get android apps for the IQ (cheapest of the three), yes, that is the case that I am making.

A demo model doesn't take up that much shelf space, so I don't see eInk devices being unfindable in stores.

But the larger issue may be whether multi-function devices that display ebooks among other things will take over the ebook viewer market from dedicated devices. eInk vs LCD will be only one factor in that equation.
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Dennis

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Yes. How does that happen?

Consider the number of readers of MobileRead who got here because they heard about ebooks and devces to read them, and wanted to learn more....But the larger issue may be whether multi-function devices that display ebooks among other things will take over the ebook viewer market from dedicated devices. eInk vs LCD will be only one factor in that equation.
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Dennis

Once I decided I wanted an Ereader, I started Googling to get more info, and ended up on this terrific site that gave me all the info I needed.

I still don't think this has to be an either/or situation. I love my Sony, but it is very hard to read at night without having a light just right to see by. I want a LCD as well so that I can read comfortably at night. Not everything has to be a competition.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by cfrizz

Once I decided I wanted an Ereader, I started Googling to get more info, and ended up on this terrific site that gave me all the info I needed.

You and lots of other people. MobileRead is an international community with over 50,000 users, and I'd bet the majority wound up here the same way you did. I think most people will consider Google their friend, and search for info first. They won't just walk into a retailer and say "I've heard about these ereader things. Do you carry them?" and pick the first one that looks good. I especially don't think so when the device is something you will use to read books. I expect people who read enough to consider an ereader purchase to be the sorts who will look before they leap.

I still don't think this has to be an either/or situation. I love my Sony, but it is very hard to read at night without having a light just right to see by. I want a LCD as well so that I can read comfortably at night. Not everything has to be a competition.

I don't think it has to be either/or as well. Too many folks seem to see their particular choice as evidence of their superior judgment, and questions of their choice as personal insults.

It's a bit like the "smartphone as fashion accessory" situation. "I'm cooler than you because I have an X phone!" Personally, I don't use things because they're cool - they're cool because I use them. So I nod politely and try not to laugh out loud at such assertions. If you measure your worth in part by what device(s) you use, I think you are missing a critical point.

I don't care what choice folks make. I just want to see they have the proper information to make an informed choice, and have properly thought through what they need a device to do. So my first question won't be "Do you want eInk or LCD?". It will be "What kind of books do you want to read, and where do you expect to get them?"
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Dennis

[Maggie Leung]

The cool factor accusation makes me laugh, because it would take way more than any gadget to make me cool. Maybe if I owned the gadget company, I'd be cool, lol. No, probably not even then.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by astra

If I happen to come to a high street shop to buy a new gadget and saw two absolutely different ones and the other one is an unknown entity and more expensive...I would go home and do a very good research. Cannot afford to buy on impulse then regret wasting money, on the other hand I would prefer to spend more money and love it then spend less and hate while all the time knowing there is something much better that I could buy...

Yep. Ereaders aren't quite at the level of impulse purchases. Depending on what you get, they don't have to be enormously expensive, but they are unlikely to be "cheap".

In general, I assume you get what you pay for. When I'm looking at a purchase, I toss out the highest and lowest priced selections automatically, and look at the stuff in the middle. The highest priced is unlikely to have value sufficient for me to consider it a worthwhile purchase. The lowest priced is likely to have quality or functional issues that will make it unsuitable. If it doesn't do what I need to do, it's a bad deal regardless of how cheap it is.

Price will be only one factor in the purchase decision, and arguably should not be the most important.
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Dennis

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Consider the number of readers of MobileRead who got here because they heard about ebooks and devces to read them, and wanted to learn more.

But that's the problem. Ebooks aren't advertised in Europe. I mean I knew that they existed, but I like pbooks anyway.
I'm guessing that most people that started to read ebooks were buying for example from amazon, saw that there is an ebook version, thought about the advantages, and decided that ebooks was the way to go. Then comes the idea that with a dedicated reader you have even more advantages.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I'm a modified impulse buyer. My selection of an instance of a class may be impulse, but I'll probably know something about the class.

So what do you do if you encounter a new class? I mean given the choice between something that you know, and something unfamiliar, do you just buy the one that you know, or go home to do research?

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Ereaders aren't quite at the level of impulse purchases. Depending on what you get, they don't have to be enormously expensive, but they are unlikely to be "cheap".

For me they are. It's strictly a once-a-year kind of thing, but I do buy something that costs a few hundred euros.

But it doesn't really come out of nowhere. I've been noticing that I'm running out of space for my books, and as a PhD student in a foreign country with less than 2 years until I'm finished, I actually have to think that I'll have to pack everything up pretty soon. Switching to ebooks makes sense if I don't want the books to outweigh everything else that I own. So when I was In the store, and I saw the ereaders, I realized that that was something that I wanted to buy.

If there would have been a staff member around, I would have bought an ereader and been happy with it. Like this, I chose one that is better (and more expensive), but I've waited for two months for it, and I still have a couple of weeks of waiting left.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

But that's the problem. Ebooks aren't advertised in Europe. I mean I knew that they existed, but I like pbooks anyway.

How did you know they existed?

I'm guessing that most people that started to read ebooks were buying for example from amazon, saw that there is an ebook version, thought about the advantages, and decided that ebooks was the way to go. Then comes the idea that with a dedicated reader you have even more advantages.

Possibly. I don't have a good feel for how people come to ebooks in the first place. Amazon has certainly publicized the notion, but the idea had at least some penetration before amazon released the Kindle and Kindle editions. My local library offered ebooks in Mobipocket and PDF format, for example.

In my case, my then employer decided all IT staffers should have PDAs, and one showed up in inter-office mail. It wasn't clear what I was supposed to do with it, so I went looking for software that would assist me in my work. An early discovery was an offline HTML viewer, and software to convert HTML to the form the PDA viewer used. Much of the documentation foir the systems I dealt with was in HTML, and I could carry a documentation library in my pocket. I didn't see myself reading fiction on it, but discovered soon enough I was comfortable doing so, and things went on from there.

So what do you do if you encounter a new class? I mean given the choice between something that you know, and something unfamiliar, do you just buy the one that you know, or go home to do research?

I do research.

If I actually know anything about one - enough to consider making a purchase - I probably have some knowledge of the class.

If I have no knowledge of the class, I'm probably unaware of members of the class, and need to find out more about the general topic before I do anything else.

For me they are. It's strictly a once-a-year kind of thing, but I do buy something that costs a few hundred euros.

I suspect you are in a minority. For most folks, that's a bit beyond the "impulse purchase" level. It certainly is for me.

"Impulse purchase" tends to indicate you won't be terribly upset if it proves a bad choice. If you do that "once a year" several hundred euros purchase, and it turns out to be a bad choice, how do you feel?

But it doesn't really come out of nowhere. I've been noticing that I'm running out of space for my books, and as a PhD student in a foreign country with less than 2 years until I'm finished, I actually have to think that I'll have to pack everything up pretty soon. Switching to ebooks makes sense if I don't want the books to outweigh everything else that I own. So when I was In the store, and I saw the ereaders, I realized that that was something that I wanted to buy.

You aren't the only one with shelf space issues. My books are double rowed, and in boxes, and in an offsite storage facility.

But I buy books to keep, and don't see replacing any significant number of pbooks with ebooks. For me, ebooks are an additional format, not a replacement. (And a good number of mine are books that won't translate well to ebook format.)

If there would have been a staff member around, I would have bought an ereader and been happy with it. Like this, I chose one that is better (and more expensive), but I've waited for two months for it, and I still have a couple of weeks of waiting left.

I hope you are happy with it and it meets your needs.
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Dennis

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

How did you know they existed?

Torrent sites. I'm pretty sure that that was where I first heard the term. You can find user manuals for almost anything. As they are usually pdf, I didn't realize that there are so many formats for ebooks until I went looking for information on readers. I also didn't really think of them as books.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I suspect you are in a minority. For most folks, that's a bit beyond the "impulse purchase" level. It certainly is for me.
"Impulse purchase" tends to indicate you won't be terribly upset if it proves a bad choice. If you do that "once a year" several hundred euros purchase, and it turns out to be a bad choice, how do you feel?

My first big expense was when I was still a bachelor student 5 years ago, and as my first laptop that brought the joy of not having to share the family desktop with my two brothers anymore. Since then, the only one that might be called a bad choice was the netbook, since it turns out that I prefer to carry around a bigger weight in order to look at a bigger screen (notice my choice of ereader). I still don't regret it, since I gave it to my mother after a year of less than occasional use, and she loves it.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

For me, ebooks are an additional format, not a replacement.

I also think that I will still buy pbooks, and I look forward to reading old classics, especially the books that I read when I was younger. Now I’ll read them in the original language.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I hope you are happy with it and it meets your needs.

Thanks!

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

...

A demo model doesn't take up that much shelf space, so I don't see eInk devices being unfindable in stores.

But the larger issue may be whether multi-function devices that display ebooks among other things will take over the ebook viewer market from dedicated devices. eInk vs LCD will be only one factor in that equation.
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Dennis

I am not certain that demoing a product for a few minutes in the store is the best way to select a reader.

I've had an eInk reader for a while now, and a couple of months ago I got an iPad. At first, I enjoyed reading on the iPad: the presentation of the page within iBooks is very pleasant, I have always preferred touch to buttons, and PDFs are a bit easier to maneuver in on the faster iPad, than on the Kindle DX (or god forbid, on the Kindle 2).

But after about 6 weeks of reading on the iPad on average 2-4 hours a night, I noticed that it started affecting my eyes. Driving at night was a little fuzzier all of a sudden.

So I ordered Kindle DX Graphites for myself and my significant other to replace the gen 2 Kindles we had, and now I am convinced that for regular reading, LCD is simply not as good as eInk.

[jeffcobb]

Gimme battery life anyday. If my ebook readers featured the cr@ppy battery life of, say everything else LCD-driven, I would not own one. I love the fact that I can read on it every day for hours on end and charge it once a week. If only my phone/laptop/etc did that. I know, the others have a lot more going on but at the end of the day, e-ink is not the battery-suck that basically everything else is.