Author says Libraries "have had their day."

[meeera]

Originally Posted by crich70

No. The post was about how kids have no respect for elders and show contempt for authority now days.

... and it was by Plato (or purports to be; it's been debunked). The point was that every single generation thinks that Kids These Days are uniquely going to hell.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by meeera

... and it was by Plato (or purports to be; it's been debunked). The point was that every single generation thinks that Kids These Days are uniquely going to hell.

True, though it does seem to be more present day than it might have been in the past.

Originally Posted by Harmon

Do you think that the parents of these pre-schoolers are using the library? I doubt it.

It depends upon the family. There are many dysfunctional poor families who would never expose their children to books. On the other hand, there are many good poor families who want to expose their children to books. Without libraries, that exposure would be minimal.

Lack of school libraries? Why is that? We spend tons of money on schools - but there's no money for libraries?

Perhaps because it takes tons of money to operate a school? Staff cost money. Facilities cost money. Resources cost money. There are things that drive those costs up. Legal (and moral) obligations to high needs students means that a single student can take a lion's share of the funding. Being gouged by the developers of educational materials and suppliers of education markets is another common problem Quite often this means that things like libraries and music programs are compromised because the funding is required in other areas.

Serious readers who read 30 books a month? Let them fund it themselves. Anyone with that kind of habit should be willing to get a second job to support it. Why should we provide such people with libraries?

My standard reply to this is: rip up the roads! Seriously. I make minimal use of the transportation infrastructure. Most of my roadway use is as a secondary user (e.g. the trucks that pick up my trash and the trucks that deliver goods to stores). That stuff tends to be restricted to arteries and only uses a fraction of the arteries capacity. So why should I be paying for roads that other people use?

You may not use libraries, but I do. I may not use roads, but you do. Together, we are sharing responsibility for the infrastructure that allows our society to function.

How do I expect schools to teach reading? Phonics. How come that stopped working? Worked fine when I was a kid. Maria Montessori could teach retarded children to read - so what's the problem?

Which works for some kids, and doesn't work for other kids. Modern schooling is a social expectation and legal obligation. That means that we cannot simply kick kids out of school if they don't learn the way we expect them to. That means that we must tailor instruction to their needs.

Libraries are obsolete. I can tell you when that dawned on me - way back in the 90s. In 1991, the Chicago Public Library system built a huge, dysfunctional central library downtown. It was a Monument.

Many libraries were built as monuments, and remain thriving institutions that are an integral part of community life. This is true whether they were built last year, a decade ago, or a century ago. The fact that you can find a counter example is not surprising. Some libraries are mismanaged, just as many institutions are mismanaged (public and private). I also find it curious that you are basing your opinion on something that happened 20 years ago.

[patrickt]

When I was young, libraries were where you did research for school and where you got novels to read. They were large buildings with row after row of books and huge card catalogue cabinets.

Then, not too many years later I went to a university library and when I asked for directions to the card catalogue I received an indulgent smile and they explained it was all on a computer. They led me to a monitor and I went to work.

Then, I visited the brand new main branch of a city library. Wow! It was beautiful. I saw over 100 PCs. They had classrooms for teaching the use of PCs and for classes in specific software, such as Lotus and WordPerfect, but what they didn't have were a lot of shelves for books. They had some, mostly modern novels. When I asked about research books I was directed to the internet and the inter-library lending site. I could order in books from a variety of sources or I could do my research on the internet.

I also saw rooms for childrens productions, reading books allowed or putting on puppet shows and plays, and meeting rooms for book clubs and community groups.

It would seem to me that in my lifetime, the concept of "library" has changed a lot and it will continue to change.

If we reach a point that research books and popular fiction are on-line to be downloaded easily to all ereaders if we will still have a library but not a building full of books.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by meeera

The point was that every single generation thinks that Kids These Days are uniquely going to hell.

Yes, but is that true?

Maybe only every other generation thinks it

[crich70]

Originally Posted by patrickt

When I was young, libraries were where you did research for school and where you got novels to read. They were large buildings with row after row of books and huge card catalogue cabinets.

Then, not too many years later I went to a university library and when I asked for directions to the card catalogue I received an indulgent smile and they explained it was all on a computer. They led me to a monitor and I went to work.

Then, I visited the brand new main branch of a city library. Wow! It was beautiful. I saw over 100 PCs. They had classrooms for teaching the use of PCs and for classes in specific software, such as Lotus and WordPerfect, but what they didn't have were a lot of shelves for books. They had some, mostly modern novels. When I asked about research books I was directed to the internet and the inter-library lending site. I could order in books from a variety of sources or I could do my research on the internet.

I also saw rooms for childrens productions, reading books allowed or putting on puppet shows and plays, and meeting rooms for book clubs and community groups.

It would seem to me that in my lifetime, the concept of "library" has changed a lot and it will continue to change.

If we reach a point that research books and popular fiction are on-line to be downloaded easily to all ereaders if we will still have a library but not a building full of books.

I think that goes to prove that knowledge evolves, not only in that we learn more accurate information about the world around us, but in the way that information is distributed as well. Man used to carve or impress characters on a clay tablet with a reed, then the scroll was invented, then manuscripts written on parchment, then books on paper were developed and now the media is evolving once again. Film did something similar but far faster. First it was reels of film, then it went to Beta and VHS tape, then to DVD and now to Blu-ray. And who knows what the media will be in the future. Media for transmitting knowledge always evolves.

[Sregener]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Yes, but is that true?

Maybe only every other generation thinks it

Actually, it's established fact that everyone thinks things were better in the "good old days." It's partly because we remember the world as we perceived it as children, before we became aware of the problems and issues that pervade adult life. Thus, you remember your peers as being much better behaved than children are today. And while the ways in which modern children disobey are appropriately called horrible, the same thing was once said about chewing gum in school. The standards of behavior are looser today, but the urge of the young to press against boundaries and rebel are a constant.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Sregener

Actually, it's established fact that everyone thinks things were better in the "good old days." It's partly because we remember the world as we perceived it as children, before we became aware of the problems and issues that pervade adult life. Thus, you remember your peers as being much better behaved than children are today. And while the ways in which modern children disobey are appropriately called horrible, the same thing was once said about chewing gum in school. The standards of behavior are looser today, but the urge of the young to press against boundaries and rebel are a constant.

Yep the ever present 'generation gap' at work.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by Sregener

Actually, it's established fact that everyone thinks things were better in the "good old days." . . . . The standards of behavior are looser today, but the urge of the young to press against boundaries and rebel are a constant.

I'd have to say, after reading your second sentence above, that the first one is an established fact no longer

I personally think it's too broad to say that one generation is better or worse, overall, than another. But people who grew up in the 1930's were, on average, harder workers. My anecdotal evidence is that my parents, ages 87 and 88, still work. Maybe the current near-depression will produce another generation of hard workers.

And there does seem solid evidence, in the US, for a decline in book reading:

The decline was especially great among the youngest people surveyed, ages 18 to 24. Only 43 percent had read any literature in 2002, down from 53 percent in 1992.

As for newspaper reading, it is obviously down among the young. Going antedotal again, my father in law, an auto mechanic, always read the daily paper. Seems to me pretty uncommon among his young counterparts.

Can anyone find more recent, and similarly reliable, book reading statistics than what is in my link above?

[Fluribus]

Originally Posted by Sregener

Actually, it's established fact that everyone thinks things were better in the "good old days." It's partly because we remember the world as we perceived it as children, before we became aware of the problems and issues that pervade adult life.

I don't think of my childhood as the good old days. I might think it had I gotten training in Latin, Greek, and Philosophy during those years. I don't think grade school would have been too early.

The standards of behavior are looser today, but the urge of the young to press against boundaries and rebel are a constant.

Which is why loosened standards are a problem.

[danskmacabre]

I was in our local library yesterday with my daughter. we spent a few hours reading on their fantastic sofas.
Then worked together on a story she's writing.
Whilst we were doing that I noticed loads of students who had met up in groups to do their homework together.
They had obviously used the library as a meet up place to work together.
Most of them had school supplied/subsidised laptops. I know this as my son is in high school and has one of those subsidised laptops.
Also they were using free internet via wifi to help with their studies.

There was also lots of other groups of people. Older people using the internet and browse, check email, whatever.
Kids playing on consoles provided by the library.
There was a justice of the peace there providing free certifying of documents.

It's also a central hub for local clubs to meet up and use for free. I use the club rooms to goto a Boardgames club, which is great fun.

This is probably the tip of the iceberg for what our local library provides in addition to 1000s of great books, DVDs etc.

I can only speak for libraries in Australia and maybe only specifically in Queensland. But I will happily pay taxes towards an invaluable service like this. Even if I never used it as it clearly helps a lot of people in life.

It would be a tragic and terrible loss to society to lose our libraries. For shame on those who think they need to go.

[crich70]

I've noticed kids meeting up after school at the library to work on homework here too. Also there have been writing groups that met up in one of the rooms and there is even a corner where English as a second language is taught at times.

[Sregener]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

As for newspaper reading, it is obviously down among the young. Going antedotal again, my father in law, an auto mechanic, always read the daily paper. Seems to me pretty uncommon among his young counterparts.

Can anyone find more recent, and similarly reliable, book reading statistics than what is in my link above?

Nobody needs to do the research. I think it is unquestionable that book reading overall is down. But the newspaper example isn't a good one. It's like saying "watch ownership rates among youngsters in steep decline" equates to "children have no sense of time." If I use a news aggregator on my smartphone, I can still be an informed citizen, even if I don't read a single newspaper.

Movies are our cultures communication vehicle. I think they are inferior for some things, but that how values and ideas are communicated now. Public speakers reference movies as illustrations, because just about everyone has seen them, much as books were referenced when just about everyone had read them. Is this better or worse? That's a matter for debate.

The libraries I visit have large sections of movies along with books. They open up access to the most-common communication form of our day to those who can only afford a TV and DVD player. They still have far more books, and I hope it stays that way, but I can see the day where libraries are mostly Internet terminals, eBooks and electronic research tools. It won't be the "good old days", but the library will still be performing its basic function of open access to information for all.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Sregener

I can see the day where libraries are mostly Internet terminals, eBooks and electronic research tools. It won't be the "good old days", but the library will still be performing its basic function of open access to information for all.

Very likely and ebooks give more people than ever before access to a given work as well. People who might not have the ability to purchase a pbook (due to where they live or other reasons) could download a copy of an ebook easily. And since each ebook is just a copy of one stored online that means that the physical constraint of only having a few copies on sale in a store at any one time doesn't apply. I mean a physical bookstore might have say 20 copies of War and Peace in stock and once those are sold if a 21st customer comes in looking for a copy they have to wait til the store restocks its shelves again, but with ebooks any number of people can buy the book and the shelves don't have that problem.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by Sregener

If I use a news aggregator on my smartphone, I can still be an informed citizen, even if I don't read a single newspaper.

I agree -- depending on the news aggregator. news.google.com, sure. But most of them emphasize opinion or nonsense. I hope this one isn't still the most popular:

http://lifehacker.com/5846410/most-p...ggregator-fark

Are tabloid papers just as bad? Not in the US. Once you get past the front page and sports, the Associated Press stories are the same as in good broadsheets.