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Old 10-02-2007, 06:26 PM   #61
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PDF is, IMHO, irrrelevent for a reader intended for the fiction market.
You might be right. But I think for the general fiction market any features that push the price over US$100 will also end up being irrelevant. I paid more than that for my iLiad only because I could also read PDF, which I need for grad school journal readings. I was pretty well satisfied with my eBookwise 1150 for fiction -- the only serious limitation that would have caused me to upgrade from a fiction point of view was the 128Mb memory limit, and even that was a limitation I could put up with because of the library software that allowed me to easily switch the books around.
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Old 10-02-2007, 09:50 PM   #62
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I wasn't disagreeing with you, Liviu_5! Just adding to.

Your point on the state of publishing creating some pressure to reconsider the e-model is a good one, which I take as a good sign.
There is again a lot of buzz about e-books in the air and I am very curious to see what the major book fair this month will bring - Kindle and Amazon's unveiling its e-book push maybe, maybe more, who knows.

I remember that at the last year's edition of the Frankfurt book fair there were whisperings about e-books, 2008 as a target date for major pushes and so on. I was skeptical, but it seems that things are starting to move....
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Old 10-03-2007, 02:31 AM   #63
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I see a much broader future for eReaders than just fiction, I want nothing more than the complete removal of the paper book. This would mean a revolution in publishing. It also means that the eReaders have to step up and provide the features without the crap. I think a thin letter sized reader will become the standard size, able to read fiction, tech docs and newspapers. eventually most ebooks will format for the size.
But a device with an A4/Letter size screen is far too big to carry around with you everywhere that you go. There's certainly a market for such devices, but it's a different market to the one which will appeal to paperback book readers. An A5/6" screen device is far more convenient for reading fiction.

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The three formats I listed do not really on device fonts but on bit mapped displays. PDF is the most prevalent for read only documents. I use this as I have ocr'd a number of books to latex, I'm not tied to the limitations of the device fonts but the limitation of the display.
PDF really is the worst possible choice for a general-purpose eBook because it's tied to a specific screen size. It was never intended for use as an eBook format - it was designed - and is good for - a portable reproduction of a specific size document.
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Old 10-03-2007, 12:03 PM   #64
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The three formats I listed do not really on device fonts but on bit mapped displays. PDF is the most prevalent for read only documents. I use this as I have ocr'd a number of books to latex, I'm not tied to the limitations of the device fonts but the limitation of the display.
PDF really is the worst possible choice for a general-purpose eBook because it's tied to a specific screen size. It was never intended for use as an eBook format - it was designed - and is good for - a portable reproduction of a specific size document.
PDF is both a format and a container. I am beginning to believe the first poster has this very confused. He seems to not care about fonts but only a high resolution display which means he is using images rather than text. He might as
well be reading books in gif or png format. There are better containers than pdf for these kinds of tasks such as comic book formats.

PDF can be a choice for books if it contains text that is reflowable and if the reader supports reflow. Unfortunately most readers other than the ones from Adobe do not support reflow and even the Adobe ones require that the text be tagged for reflow. (There are ways to tag a file after the fact but this is beyond the scope here.)

While your statement about a general format that is page specific being a bad thing is true it is also true that most readers use a page specific format that is specific for their reader. This is one of the real problems that must be addressed before a universal format like epub can be used natively as a book format. Real books are pages. (This probably deserves its own discussion somewhere).

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Old 10-03-2007, 12:14 PM   #65
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PDF can be a choice for books if it contains text that is reflowable and if the reader supports reflow. Unfortunately most readers other than the ones from Adobe do not support reflow and even the Adobe ones require that the text be tagged for reflow. (There are ways to tag a file after the fact but this is beyond the scope here.)
Not even all Adobe readers support reflow. Eg, the PDF code in the Sony Reader is licensed from Adobe, and it has no reflow support!

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While your statement about a general format that is page specific being a bad thing is true it is also true that most readers use a page specific format that is specific for their reader. This is one of the real problems that must be addressed before a universal format like epub can be used natively as a book format. Real books are pages. (This probably deserves its own discussion somewhere).
Could you elaborate - I'm not sure that I follow you. When you load, say, an RTF or an LRF file into the Sony Reader, or a MobiPocket file into the iLiad, it doesn't have pre-defined pages; the reader "paginates" it when it loads. The pages are not defined in the file, as they are with PDF. Apologies if I've misunderstood you.


Dale[/QUOTE]
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Old 10-03-2007, 12:25 PM   #66
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Could you elaborate - I'm not sure that I follow you. When you load, say, an RTF or an LRF file into the Sony Reader, or a MobiPocket file into the iLiad, it doesn't have pre-defined pages; the reader "paginates" it when it loads. The pages are not defined in the file, as they are with PDF. Apologies if I've misunderstood you.
When you're right, you're right.

On my Dell Axim, eReader Pro has no problem 'remembering' which 'page' it is on and jumping to new 'pages' on the fly. As I re-size the text, the 'pages' re-flow and if I choose to jump to a new 'page' eReader recalculates where that is in the file.

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Old 10-03-2007, 12:37 PM   #67
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When you're right, you're right.

On my Dell Axim, eReader Pro has no problem 'remembering' which 'page' it is on and jumping to new 'pages' on the fly. As I re-size the text, the 'pages' re-flow and if I choose to jump to a new 'page' eReader recalculates where that is in the file.

Derek
I may have been too general in my comment. I know my eb1150 paginates and I know MobiPocket and some others do not. I do not have a Sony so I am not sure whether it paginates or not. However here are some issues in pagination.

MobiPocket has a terrible time with pagination. You never know how many pages there are in the book nor how close you are to the next chapter. If you jump to a chapter ahead and backup you will find the pagination is not the same as you would have if you read the same page moving forward instead of jumping. This is certainly not like a real book. (The problem in MobiPocket is one of user control. The user can redo the font at any time which totally messes up the pagination)

Digital Editions does paginate but does it on the fly the first time the book (and every time the book) is opened. This makes it horrendously slow when opening any long book.

How does the Sony reader deal with pagination issues if the format doesn't impose them?

Dale
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Old 10-03-2007, 05:10 PM   #68
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Regarding pagination, I actually need to maintain it for some of my purposes. When I'm quoting a journal article, I need to quote the page as it appeared in the original journal.

But that's not what most folks would buy an 1150 for.
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Old 10-04-2007, 02:36 AM   #69
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MobiPocket has a terrible time with pagination. You never know how many pages there are in the book nor how close you are to the next chapter. If you jump to a chapter ahead and backup you will find the pagination is not the same as you would have if you read the same page moving forward instead of jumping. This is certainly not like a real book. (The problem in MobiPocket is one of user control. The user can redo the font at any time which totally messes up the pagination)
That's interesting - pagination works fine on the iLiad MobiPocket Reader. It paginates the file when you load the book and again if you change the font size. The way that navigation works on the iLiad is that you have a "bar" along the bottom of the page representing the book, with page 1 at the left side and the last page of the book at the right side (it displays the total number of pages). Tapping the bar at any point takes you to that point in the book. You can also set the bar to show individual page numbers if you want finer control. All works perfectly.

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How does the Sony reader deal with pagination issues if the format doesn't impose them?
It paginates when you first open the book - you get a "busy" cursor - and again the first time you select a given font size (of which there are only three - small, medium, large). Generally only takes a few seconds; the longest I think I've seen it take is about 30 seconds for an extremely long book.
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:29 PM   #70
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That's interesting - pagination works fine on the iLiad MobiPocket Reader. It paginates the file when you load the book and again if you change the font size. The way that navigation works on the iLiad is that you have a "bar" along the bottom of the page representing the book, with page 1 at the left side and the last page of the book at the right side (it displays the total number of pages). Tapping the bar at any point takes you to that point in the book. You can also set the bar to show individual page numbers if you want finer control. All works perfectly.



It paginates when you first open the book - you get a "busy" cursor - and again the first time you select a given font size (of which there are only three - small, medium, large). Generally only takes a few seconds; the longest I think I've seen it take is about 30 seconds for an extremely long book.
Very interesting. So it is like digital editions. I am surprised that Sony paginates on the fly since it only has 3 font sizes. My 1150 only supports two user choices (zoom) and it simply paginates them both when the file is built thereby offering instant swaps of zoom levels. The author/publisher of the book is responsible to check both zoom levels to ensure that pagination doesn't do anything stupid. For example, ib tables I find that I occasionally use the soft hyphen to make the table work with the larger font. Sometimes I even move an image so that it shows up reasonably in both sizes. But the user experience is instant, no matter how big the book is.

I am also surprised that MobiPocket hasn't backported this solution into their standard offering. It is a big complaint among MobiPocket users.

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Old 10-04-2007, 12:39 PM   #71
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Regarding pagination, I actually need to maintain it for some of my purposes. When I'm quoting a journal article, I need to quote the page as it appeared in the original journal.

But that's not what most folks would buy an 1150 for.
If you are reading the original journal on a ebook reader you will only have the same page numbers if it is in PDF format. Even the 1150 repaginates the numbers when the book is built. Actually it repaginates twice. Once for the normal size and once for the zoom size (if the author or publisher allows both sizes). If you are referencing a paper or pdf book the you can just type in the correct page number of course. This is one reason that many technical documents actually number the section headings so that a reference can be made to the section rather than the page number. This way if the book is reformatted it can still be referenced ok.

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Old 10-04-2007, 12:43 PM   #72
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FBreader on my 770 has an interesting solution for pagination based on a fixed number of bites per page, so with my settings the same page appears about 3 times.
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:50 PM   #73
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FBreader on my 770 has an interesting solution for pagination based on a fixed number of bites per page, so with my settings the same page appears about 3 times.
It also has an interesting feature where you can turn on the chapter boundaries and they will show up in the slider bar at the bottom of the screen. This is very useful when you are wondering it you are about done with a chapter.

With variable width fonts it is difficult to assume a fixed byte count and get the page size consistent. There are always tradeoffs.

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Old 10-04-2007, 01:56 PM   #74
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If you are reading the original journal on a ebook reader you will only have the same page numbers if it is in PDF format.
Yes-- I read journal articles as PDFs on my iLiad. That's why I got an iLiad instead of sticking with my trusty eBw 1150 (right before the PDF->1150 tool came out!)
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:44 PM   #75
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Very interesting. So it is like digital editions. I am surprised that Sony paginates on the fly since it only has 3 font sizes. My 1150 only supports two user choices (zoom) and it simply paginates them both when the file is built thereby offering instant swaps of zoom levels. The author/publisher of the book is responsible to check both zoom levels to ensure that pagination doesn't do anything stupid. For example, ib tables I find that I occasionally use the soft hyphen to make the table work with the larger font. Sometimes I even move an image so that it shows up reasonably in both sizes. But the user experience is instant, no matter how big the book is.

I am also surprised that MobiPocket hasn't backported this solution into their standard offering. It is a big complaint among MobiPocket users.

Dale
Connect does sort out the formatting when the book is loaded onto the reader using Connect.
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