Amazon: New $189 Price Results in Tipping Point for Growth - Page 3

Nathanael · 07-20-2010, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

all I can say is enjoy your trip to the bookstore or the wait for delivery from your online purchase. I will enjoy my reading while you are doing all of that running about.

All I can say is enjoy that padded jail cell.

I've never bought an ebook from Amazon, and neither have you. The next time you're lightening your pocketbook in Amazon's direction, remember that Amazon doesn't sell ebooks, it LICENSES them (http://www.llrx.com/feature/ebooks.htm). You don't OWN an Amazon ebook, you're merely paying for permission to read it (permission which Amazon can, and has, revoked without warning).

I OWN some 30-50,000 ebooks. I can copy them to my heart's content, give them away to all my friends, read them on every device I own now or in the future, and convert them into whatever format is most convenient for me. I don't need Amazon's permission, and, since they're already loaded into my reader, I don't need to download anything. But then I've always found Dickens to be a much better read than anything Dan Brown ever cranked out.

And since Amazon ebooks are locked up in Amazon's proprietary format, you're stuck buying Kindles until the Lord returns.

--Nathanael

banjobama · 07-20-2010, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Problem is that it's not clear if a book is DRM'd or not.

(oh, and DRM'd mobi isn't too much of a problem, but that Topaz is)

I think if in the book info, if it says the book is usable on unlimited devices then it isn't DRMed. If it doesn't say anything, then it is DRMed, but no way of knowing whether mobi or Topaz.

I've downloaded a couple books from Amazon and my experience has been consistent with the "unlimited devices" notation.

carld · 07-20-2010, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banjobama

I wonder how many more ebooks Amazon would have sold if they offered epub format. On the other hand, the Kindle makes it so easy to buy their ebooks that it might not matter. They don't even say "ebooks," do they? They say, "Kindle edition." No Joe Schmoe Kindle owner has to worry about file formats or DRM at all.

They probably wouldn't sell any more copies. Their DRM would still only allow the books to work on the Kindle, so ePub wouldn't be any real benefit to the consumer.

m-reader · 07-20-2010, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathanael

All I can say is enjoy that padded jail cell.

I've never bought an ebook from Amazon, and neither have you. The next time you're lightening your pocketbook in Amazon's direction, remember that Amazon doesn't sell ebooks, it LICENSES them (http://www.llrx.com/feature/ebooks.htm). You don't OWN an Amazon ebook, you're merely paying for permission to read it (permission which Amazon can, and has, revoked without warning).

I OWN some 30-50,000 ebooks. I can copy them to my heart's content, give them away to all my friends, read them on every device I own now or in the future, and convert them into whatever format is most convenient for me. I don't need Amazon's permission, and, since they're already loaded into my reader, I don't need to download anything. But then I've always found Dickens to be a much better read than anything Dan Brown ever cranked out.

And since Amazon ebooks are locked up in Amazon's proprietary format, you're stuck buying Kindles until the Lord returns.

--Nathanael

WTR licensing, I am sure you haven't bought the copyright to the paper books you own. You just own the actual medium that holds the book (the paper and the ink). The Intellectual Property is still with the publisher and the author.
If you copy the book - you may well be breaching the copyright. Ditto for selling on and lending.

banjobama · 07-20-2010, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carld

They probably wouldn't sell any more copies. Their DRM would still only allow the books to work on the Kindle, so ePub wouldn't be any real benefit to the consumer.

I should restate that to say, if they sold ebooks with Adobe DRM, which many different devices can read, or no DRM at all. No doubt they would have sold many more ebooks.

fjtorres · 07-20-2010, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banjobama

I should restate that to say, if they sold ebooks with Adobe DRM, which many different devices can read, or no DRM at all. No doubt they would have sold many more ebooks.

Sorry.
I had no great gripes with the frst statement but the second...

For Amazon to sell books with Adobe DRM they would have to *pay* Adobe for the "privilege" of supporting their competing ecosystem. DRM'ed ePub is a non-starter for Amazon just because their whole business is about squeezing unnecessary costs and paying Adobe for a "service" they can already perform in-house isn't in the cards.

Second, with the price-fix regime in place, Amazon is "forbidden" from competing on price on those ebooks so they have would have no competitive advantage on those reader devices. They'd have the same books at the same prices. It would be a "me-too" move.

But they *would* have to convert their whole catalog to ePub. Odds are the incremental sales might offset the cost but the "helping the enemy" aspect would likely outweigh any benefits. In business you don't go out of your way to help your enemy.

Now, supporting DRM-free ePub is a different story; that would cost them nothing (competion-wise) and might possibly be spun into a (minor) competitive advantage if they wanted to be nasty and highlight the emerging fork in ePub implementations between Adobe ePub and Apple ePub. But again, even there the (minimal) costs probably out-weigh the benefits.

The thing about Kindle is that its value as a reader comes from the bookstore, the wireless, the socal network effects; not its hardware or software features. Supporting other ebook formats buys them very little but would muddy the waters for their mainstream customers who *don't* care about ebook formats or DRM or standards; those folks just want to buy and read.

Amazon just wants them to buy.
(Which is why they don't support library-friendly Mobi-DRM though they own it.)

Kindle is a storefront, first and foremost.
It's a friendly, convenient store and they provide good service and good value. But Amazon is in this business to make money, not support standards efforts or to give aid and comfort to their enemies.
Everything they do is geared towards selling books as efficiently as possible.
And right now, adding commercial ePub support to Kindle would not justify (in their eyes) the added cost.

Now, last year, before the Price-fix scheme, ePub support would have had value as a way to undercut B&N and Borders and the rest of the Adobe gang. Strangle them in their cribs. Wouldn't have been good for consumers, might've attracted government action, but it would have led to much stronger ebook sales over time. But Amazon chose not to. They're not quite *that* evil.

m-reader · 07-20-2010, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Now, last year, before the Price-fix scheme, ePub support would have had value as a way to undercut B&N and Borders and the rest of the Adobe gang. Strangle them in their cribs. Wouldn't have been good for consumers, might've attracted government action, but it would have led to much stronger ebook sales over time. But Amazon chose not to. They're not quite *that* evil.

Thanks for an interesting analysis. Just goes to show that things are not only black and white.

JSWolf · 07-20-2010, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjtorres

80% of Patterson's ebook sales are through Kindle?
That does suggest that they *do* hold 80% of the mainstream ebook market.

I notice they don't give absolute numbers for Kindle reader sales...
They must be getting most of their volume from the reader apps.

A lot of Patterson's eBooks are available at libraries. So Kindle users do have to buy them since they cannot borrow library eBooks.

kjk · 07-20-2010, 09:47 AM

Interesting perspective on Amazon's press release:
http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2010...the-headlines/

Quote:

And finally, Amazon chooses its words carefully; in the midst of the Kindle hype, Bezos made a point of noting that ”our hardcover sales continue to grow.”

A significant percentage of the eBooks Amazon offers for sale were NEVER published in hardcover format; many more are from independent publishers and authors taking advantage of the lower barriers to entry. The room to grow is exponential. Genres and niches that get limited shelf space in the brick and mortar book world are perfectly suited for the digital book world. New authors can be bundled with popular authors in digital-only anthologies and samplers to expose them to a wider audience.

fjtorres · 07-20-2010, 11:08 AM

Quote:

New authors can be bundled with popular authors in digital-only anthologies and samplers to expose them to a wider audience.

Webscriptions!
Somebody finally noticed!

Looking at the reactions to the Amazon announcement a lot of folks seem mortified that Amazon is doing well.

Truth is, the key point in the announcement is that mainstream ebooks are doing well and now constitute a significant share of the market, comparable in unit volume to the hardcover market. That for all the BPH's efforts, the technology is snowballing and has probably reached critical mass. There is no going back.

The rest is useful stuff but really secondary.

pilotbob · 07-20-2010, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathanael

(wouldn't touch a Kindle even if Amazon gave them away free)

I expect this statement is patently false and only said because you know Amazon won't give Kindles away anytime soon based on their current sales. Also, if you did get that free kindle you would be able to read those 50k ebooks you have on it just as well as any other reader.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

A lot of Patterson's eBooks are available at libraries. So Kindle users do have to buy them since they cannot borrow library eBooks.

Ok, we get it, you prefer your Sony to the Kindle. Bully for you.

BOb

J. Strnad · 07-20-2010, 11:46 AM

Amazon has tremendous marketing muscle and the Kindle works for very many people, as it has for the past couple of years. Most people don't care about DRM, although they may come to care in the future. We'll have to wait and see.

My Kindle sales are more than double, almost triple, my Smashwords sales. Risen has just come out at B&N.com and in the Sony store, has yet to hit iBooks and Kobobooks, so we'll see how it all shakes out. But right now, Amazon is pulling in more sales than everyone else combined (not that I'm rolling in sales...Im still in low double digits).

SameOldStory · 07-20-2010, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m-reader

+1 today

Cheers,

m-reader

-1 yesterday.

From another post #32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellmark

I'd say more than not, if it is available via Amazon, it is also available from another ebook store. Try using inkmesh.com or something like that to find where has the book, and for how much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

Not always. I went looking for Mech by MR member BVLarson. Kindle only. I did however find a funny zombie book (The Changed by B.J. Burrow, non-DRM) that I did buy from another site. And that book is in Kindle, PDF, ePub, etc.

Larsons problem is that even if he makes it available in non-DRM format later, I will not remember to keep looking for it. Sale lost.

Again, why should I have to make their product work on my reader? Imagine a tire dealer saying that you can ONLY use his tires if you modify YOUR car. I'll just go elsewhere.

Mech does look good. And if I KNEW that I could read it later without jumping through hoops, I would have bought it. Somehow it must make sense to Amazon to exclude those that have other readers (I know, I know. I can buy an expensive phone, or read on my computer, or .....).

Nathanael · 07-20-2010, 09:30 PM

I was pretty sceptical of the report -- sounded like one of those typical press releases that the media likes to snap up and run with with its critical thinking switched to off. But this CNET review did a much better job of deconstructing it:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-18438_7-20011038-82.html

Some flags it raises:

Kindle sales also tripled when prices dropped from $359 to $299.

How much of Amazon's ebook business consists in self-published books (Amazon stocks a LOT of them)?

What are the profit margins -- at $9.99 Amazon was losing money before the switch to the new agency model. It still considers ebooks loss-leaders.

Amazon's ebook business is growing, but this may only because the entire ebook business is booming (the American Publishing Association claims overall ebook sales quadrupled last year). What about market share? If Apple and B&N claims of 20% marketshare each are true, Amazon is likely losing marketshare.

The CNET article raises other questions as well.

---------------------------------

And a question of my own: Anyone have a clue what the industry's profit margin on ebooks is? Standard industry wholesale prices of hardcovers are generally half the list price; that's $13 on average. Yet pre-agency-model wholesale prices for ebooks were nearly the same -- $12 -- despite the fact that ebooks are cheaper to produce, incurring none of the printing, shipping or storage costs that comprise 12-15% of the cost of a traditional book. And, I've heard (don't know if it's true) that publishers pay authors a lower cut of ebook sales.

Sounds to me like someone's rollin' in ebook dough.

--Nathanael

carld · 07-20-2010, 10:20 PM

I don't think that cnet article is worth the electrons it took to send it.

>Kindle sales also tripled when prices dropped from $359 to $299.

To which I say, so what?

>How much of Amazon's ebook business consists in self-published books (Amazon stocks a LOT of them)?

What does it matter? They also counted all hardbacks not just hardbacks that are also out on the Kindle. The cnet article doesn't mention that fact.

>What are the profit margins -- at $9.99 Amazon was losing money before the switch to the new agency model. It still considers ebooks loss-leaders.

What do the profit margins matter as far as the article goes? Amazon didn't make any claims about how much money they made on ebooks. That's a red herring.

>Amazon's ebook business is growing, but this may only because the entire ebook business is booming (the American Publishing Association claims overall ebook sales quadrupled last year).

Again, so what? Why is this some sort of red flag?

>What about market share? If Apple and B&N claims of 20% marketshare each are true, Amazon is likely losing marketshare.

What about it? Amazon made no claims about the market share of the Kindle. They said their ebook business was growing. Throwing around a lot of speculation and tangential questions and claims doesn't change that and it doesn't throw any red flags to me.

>Sounds to me like someone's rollin' in ebook dough.

Yes, we get it. Amazon is a bunch of evil liars and the Kindle sucks rocks.

07-20-2010, 09:30 PM	#44
Nathanael Groupie Posts: 185 Karma: 1110435 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Shanghai, China Device: Sibrary G5	I was pretty sceptical of the report -- sounded like one of those typical press releases that the media likes to snap up and run with with its critical thinking switched to off. But this CNET review did a much better job of deconstructing it: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-18438_7-20011038-82.html Some flags it raises: Kindle sales also tripled when prices dropped from $359 to $299. How much of Amazon's ebook business consists in self-published books (Amazon stocks a LOT of them)? What are the profit margins -- at $9.99 Amazon was losing money before the switch to the new agency model. It still considers ebooks loss-leaders. Amazon's ebook business is growing, but this may only because the entire ebook business is booming (the American Publishing Association claims overall ebook sales quadrupled last year). What about market share? If Apple and B&N claims of 20% marketshare each are true, Amazon is likely losing marketshare. The CNET article raises other questions as well. --------------------------------- And a question of my own: Anyone have a clue what the industry's profit margin on ebooks is? Standard industry wholesale prices of hardcovers are generally half the list price; that's $13 on average. Yet pre-agency-model wholesale prices for ebooks were nearly the same -- $12 -- despite the fact that ebooks are cheaper to produce, incurring none of the printing, shipping or storage costs that comprise 12-15% of the cost of a traditional book. And, I've heard (don't know if it's true) that publishers pay authors a lower cut of ebook sales. Sounds to me like someone's rollin' in ebook dough. --Nathanael Last edited by Nathanael; 07-20-2010 at 09:32 PM.

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07-20-2010, 11:46 AM	#42
J. Strnad Guru Posts: 915 Karma: 3537194 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Kobo, Kindle 3, Paperwhite	Amazon has tremendous marketing muscle and the Kindle works for very many people, as it has for the past couple of years. Most people don't care about DRM, although they may come to care in the future. We'll have to wait and see. My Kindle sales are more than double, almost triple, my Smashwords sales. Risen has just come out at B&N.com and in the Sony store, has yet to hit iBooks and Kobobooks, so we'll see how it all shakes out. But right now, Amazon is pulling in more sales than everyone else combined (not that I'm rolling in sales...Im still in low double digits).

07-20-2010, 10:20 PM	#45
carld Wizard Posts: 2,698 Karma: 4748723 Join Date: Dec 2007 Device: Kindle Paperwhite	I don't think that cnet article is worth the electrons it took to send it. >Kindle sales also tripled when prices dropped from $359 to $299. To which I say, so what? >How much of Amazon's ebook business consists in self-published books (Amazon stocks a LOT of them)? What does it matter? They also counted all hardbacks not just hardbacks that are also out on the Kindle. The cnet article doesn't mention that fact. >What are the profit margins -- at $9.99 Amazon was losing money before the switch to the new agency model. It still considers ebooks loss-leaders. What do the profit margins matter as far as the article goes? Amazon didn't make any claims about how much money they made on ebooks. That's a red herring. >Amazon's ebook business is growing, but this may only because the entire ebook business is booming (the American Publishing Association claims overall ebook sales quadrupled last year). Again, so what? Why is this some sort of red flag? >What about market share? If Apple and B&N claims of 20% marketshare each are true, Amazon is likely losing marketshare. What about it? Amazon made no claims about the market share of the Kindle. They said their ebook business was growing. Throwing around a lot of speculation and tangential questions and claims doesn't change that and it doesn't throw any red flags to me. >Sounds to me like someone's rollin' in ebook dough. Yes, we get it. Amazon is a bunch of evil liars and the Kindle sucks rocks.

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