Real Page Numbers

[MarcusStringer]

Hi Guys I've just been reading this article here which says the new up date to Kindle will display REAL page numbers...eg the page number that appears in the printed version will apply in the electronic edition.

Firstly, I didn't think this was possible given the continuous flow nature of the beast.

Secondly, how will this effect people who make ePubs and then simply convert to .mobi via kindlegen?

I'm a little miffed these people keep changing the rules, just when I get my head around it...

[Toxaris]

This will have no effect for the epubs. Page numbers are calculated in ePubs and will ignore hard settings.

Also, ePubs converted to .mobi will probably also not have that reference. There is no way to determine during a conversion what the 'real' page-number is. So, probably there will be some calculation for that conversion.

[theducks]

I am not sure you could not apply 'anchors' to page numbers (as in the printed text) and have a Jump link work.
But having page number appear in the middle of my re-flowed text is something I strive to REMOVE

[NicolasR]

You cannot remove it by yourself.
The only way is to recompile Adobe Reader Mobile, something that only hardware vendor can do (Bookeen has done it, and Sony too).

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by MarcusStringer

Hi Guys I've just been reading this article here which says the new up date to Kindle will display REAL page numbers...eg the page number that appears in the printed version will apply in the electronic edition.

Firstly, I didn't think this was possible given the continuous flow nature of the beast.

Secondly, how will this effect people who make ePubs and then simply convert to .mobi via kindlegen?

I'm a little miffed these people keep changing the rules, just when I get my head around it...

I wonder which printed version. Often there are several editions and paperback vs. hardback versions of a book.

Dale

[DMSmillie]

Not sure if Amazon or the publisher selects the book, or if there are any specific criteria used to make the selection, but whichever print version is chosen as the page numbering "reference" version, the ISBN for that edition is provided in the Amazon product details for the ebook, so that if necessary one can cite the details of the relevant print version.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

whichever print version is chosen as the page numbering "reference" version, the ISBN for that edition is provided in the Amazon product details for the ebook, so that if necessary one can cite the details of the relevant print version.

But the ebook should have its own ISBN, so you get an ISBN but use a different ISBN for references? What if the ebook has different (maybe more, maybe less) typos than the print book?

[DMSmillie]

Not sure what typos have to do with anything, but yes, the ebook gets its own ISBN (if one is allocated to it at all), but the ISBN of the paper version that the page numbers are derived from is provided as well, so that those who want to use the page numbers in citations and references can reference the appropriate edition of the book.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

Not sure what typos have to do with anything

Typos might be precisely what you want to cite.

Since page references are by no means absolute, and they must refer to some particular edition, they could just add some pseudo-pages to the ebook without making them correspond to any printed edition. Page references will have to be converted to the particular edition someone is using, anyway.

[DMSmillie]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Typos might be precisely what you want to cite.

True, though I'd suggest that's not exactly the primary reason those who have been clamoring for page numbers had in mind.

Originally Posted by Jellby

Since page references are by no means absolute, and they must refer to some particular edition, they could just add some pseudo-pages to the ebook without making them correspond to any printed edition. Page references will have to be converted to the particular edition someone is using, anyway.

OK, this is getting confusing - are we talking about what Amazon have implemented, or what we think they should or could have done?

Page references are absolute if they relate to a fixed media/format edition of a book, such as a specific print version. The page numbers now provided for some Kindle ebooks do refer to a particular (print) edition (one would hope the print edition used to provide the content for the ebook version).

I'm finding myself in the position of trying to explain what Amazon have implemented, but I'd just like to make it clear that I'm not one of those who wanted, or argued in favour of, "real" page numbers - my posts in previous threads on the subject make that pretty obvious.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

OK, this is getting confusing - are we talking about what Amazon have implemented, or what we think they should or could have done?

I'm taking about why I think what they have (or say they have) done is pretty useless except in some very specific cases, and why it shouldn't be endorsed by ebook creators (and, in particular, in ePUB, which the Kindle does not read anyway).

Page references are absolute if they relate to a fixed media/format edition of a book, such as a specific print version. The page numbers now provided for some Kindle ebooks do refer to a particular (print) edition (one would hope the print edition used to provide the content for the ebook version).

But they are not absolute for the content, which should be what matters. If I want to cite some passage of Huckleberry Finn, saying it's in page 148 is pretty useless; saying it's in page 148 of some particular edition is only useful if you happen to have the same edition. For an ebook, having "page 148" match some printed edition is just as useful as having "page 148" anywhere else. If they want to provide a means of having hard references (independent of font size, margins, etc.) in an ebook, that's OK, but I see no point in trying to reproduce a printed edition (unless it's a fac-simile).

I'm finding myself in the position of trying to explain what Amazon have implemented, but I'd just like to make it clear that I'm not one of those who wanted, or argued in favour of, "real" page numbers - my posts in previous threads on the subject make that pretty obvious.

And I don't want to imply that's what I think. I just replied and quoted your post because it made me think, and then we talk about the matter. We probably agree mostly

[Adjust]

I guess they are talking about the "Book Club".
Where you all sit around and discuss the book. 5 people have the paperback edition and 2 people have Kindle edition. Or school scenario..."Ok, guys read page blah before out next class" that type of thing...

I too am wondering how they would go about doing this...Whether they'd insert the numbers based on OCR searching for the first and last line of text on that page????

[DMSmillie]

Originally Posted by Jellby

I'm taking about why I think what they have (or say they have) done is pretty useless except in some very specific cases, and why it shouldn't be endorsed by ebook creators (and, in particular, in ePUB, which the Kindle does not read anyway).

OK... that's clear enough.

Originally Posted by Jellby

We probably agree mostly

I suspect we do.

Originally Posted by Jellby

But they are not absolute for the content, which should be what matters. If I want to cite some passage of Huckleberry Finn, saying it's in page 148 is pretty useless; saying it's in page 148 of some particular edition is only useful if you happen to have the same edition.

But that's always been the case for citations and references. What it does do, though, is enable someone to pinpoint the exact material being cited or referenced.

Originally Posted by Jellby

For an ebook, having "page 148" match some printed edition is just as useful as having "page 148" anywhere else. If they want to provide a means of having hard references (independent of font size, margins, etc.) in an ebook, that's OK, but I see no point in trying to reproduce a printed edition (unless it's a fac-simile).

That, I'd agree with. However those who are coming from an academic perspective seem to feel that they need to be able to cite references to printed editions, rather than use some form of reference based on the Kindle format (such as location numbers). I've seen a range of reasons put forward for this:

• that the authorities on how to properly cite material in academic papers (Chicago Manual of Style, APA, ALA, etc) don't provide any rules on acceptable formats for ebook references;
• that a reference to a printed work will still be valid and accessible in 50 years time whereas who knows whether or not Kindles will even still exist then;
• that it's much easier and more acceptable for those who need or wish to check the citations provided in a dissertation, academic paper, etc, to go to the library and access the relevant printed material than to require them to be able to access a specific ebook format, such as Kindle ebooks.

Then, as Adjust mentions, there's the school/college setting where the teacher sets a specific set of pages to be read before the next lesson, or the book club scenario, where people can refer to material according to the page in the (specified) printed version where it can be found.

I don't agree with all of these as "good" reasons for tying an ebook to a specific printed version of a book (and none of these address what one is meant to do if there is no corresponding print version), but I can understand the reasoning behind some of these.