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View Poll Results: Do you want English to have a genderless pronoun? | |||
No. | 37 | 48.05% | |
He works for me. | 7 | 9.09% | |
She works for me. | 0 | 0% | |
He/she works for me | 0 | 0% | |
Alternating he and she in example works for me. | 1 | 1.30% | |
Yes. | 32 | 41.56% | |
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll |
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07-28-2012, 08:19 PM | #76 |
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In some of the other online communities I loiter about from time to time, there's a small (but ever-growing) group of people who have made up their own gender pronouns, and become aggressive towards people if they slip up and don't use these pronouns. The pronouns are zie (he or she) and zir (his or her). These words both look and sound absurd, and I don't feel that they follow whatever garbled syntax the English language possesses at all.
At the end of the day, I think that 'he' and 'they' work perfectly well, and that to go further than that enables coddling and enables people who are over-sensitive about non-issues (or, worse, people who think that there is necessarily a dominant gender). 'He' is fairly widely accepted as referring to 'all people', and 'they' implies no gender without the (apparently) insulting connotation of 'it'. I've been referred to as a girl, a guy, a they and an it in the past, and it honestly hasn't bothered me. A quick correction to the preferred pronoun (even if it's a made-up word such as zie) is all that's needed; we don't need a proper language reform. The small percentage of people who can't deal with being referred to by either gender pronoun tend to already have a separate idiolect for it, anyway. I've seen 'zie' and 'zir' used in professionally published books in the past, and while it stops me every now and again because I have to re-process what this word means every time I see it, the books have sold relatively successfully for what they are - but I truly, honestly don't feel that they would have told any worse if the author had stuck to a single "real" gender pronoun, or if the author had alternated between "he" and "she". |
07-28-2012, 08:23 PM | #77 | ||
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For example, see wikipedia: Quote:
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07-29-2012, 07:21 AM | #78 | |
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In a science-fiction context where true genderless entities did exist, it would be the correct pronoun for them. |
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07-29-2012, 07:41 AM | #79 | |
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In a sense using an unknown word, is more clear then using a known word since the known word has baggage. If he wrote Ban shook hiser head Then when the readers come across hiser, they will automatically use context to figure out what he meant. If he writes Ban shook its head Then the most common understanding will be "Ban is not a person, maybe a robot or a dog." Writing dialog from another land and time has to take into account how the reader reads. So while "it" may possibly rise up in a genderless society to fit this role, modern readers will not likely think that way. The same is true of Ban shook Ban's head That is 100% correct way of saying the same thing, but it is not how we speak so most readers will think there are 2 different people named Ban in that sentence. Readers are smart enough to figure it out, but things like this jar them out of the book, and that should be avoided when possible, IMO. Anyways, that is all just my opinion. |
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07-29-2012, 08:42 AM | #80 | |
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That is to say: the negative connotations being noted generally refer to the situation where the object of discussion may be offended by not being referred to as the appropriate gender. Where such offense is not anticipated the connotations are much less likely to be read into the text. I would also add that a reader's understanding of word usage varies with the genre. In science fiction, and fantasy to varying degrees, a reader generally expects to have to learn some language subtleties relevant to the context. Thus, once it becomes clear that Ban is neither male nor female, the use of "it" will be seen as appropriate and unlikely to attract more attention than the reminder that this being is neither a "he" or a "she" - which is quite possibly a good thing. At least, that's the way I see it. |
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07-29-2012, 08:52 AM | #81 | |
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As I said, if early on the reason for "it" was given, I think it would be fine. I think that is true no matter what pronoun he uses. He came up with a situation that does not fit modern language, so he will have to do some setup to explain the language usage early in the book. Might be as simple as a character correcting a child that uses "he" (which I assume for now animals still have gender, so he could still be a valid word) for a person when that child should use "it." Without reading any of the story its hard to guess what would work best. |
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07-29-2012, 09:09 AM | #82 |
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I can't vote in the poll. IMO English already has a singular gender-neutral pronoun: they.
Just as you is both singular and plural, so is they. "Ban shook their head" is correct. |
07-29-2012, 11:25 AM | #83 |
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It's completely hideous. I'd toss the book across the room and never pick it up again if I read that.
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07-29-2012, 12:11 PM | #84 | |
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"Ships of wood, men of iron!" That speaks to the discipline that mariners, especially early mariners had to adhere to and of course it started with the Captain. Pardon me if I carry on a bit. I will excerpt a bit from "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald." You have to listen to the song to really get it all with a night on a ship in a stormy sea to get the full effect. "The wind in the wires made a tattle-tale sound and a wave broke over the railing. And ev'ry man knew, as the captain did too 'twas the witch of November come stealin'." And my most favorite line of all in the song: "Does any one know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?" Here is a Youtube version of the story of the Wreck of The Edmund Fitzgerald. Footage from the news at that time with Gordon Lightfoot singing. Edmund Fitzgerald I had joined the Navy just a few years before this happened, at the tail end of Vietnam. Last edited by SeaKing; 07-29-2012 at 12:46 PM. |
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07-29-2012, 12:13 PM | #85 |
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07-29-2012, 01:05 PM | #86 | |
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If one is worried that it makes Ban seem to be a robot or object of some sort, what does they do? Since this is science fiction, they might make the reader think that Ban is some two-for-one creature or other multiple entity. |
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07-29-2012, 03:37 PM | #87 |
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It's been heading that way since the 15th century I believe. Even Shakespeare used it.
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08-26-2012, 11:49 PM | #88 |
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Misuse of pronouns has rhetorical consequences. If you say "they," then your reader will conjur the plural in his mind, and then be forced to reform that initial image when he deduces by the context that your "they" is actually singular. The reader is not only jarred, but then he makes further inferences - that you're effecting a more casual conversational tone (as this is really a more common convention in conversation,) or that you're making a deliberate effort not to imply gender (which is different than simply not implying gender casually.)
Pronoun misuse is often forgiven in the case of trying to be PC, but to some of us, it is like nails on the chalkboard. I am embarassed to show my children Sesame Street as Elmo and Cookie monster's refusal to use pronouns insults kids' intelligence and teaches them to talk like idiots. On the other hand, I just finished reading "Anthem" by Ayn Rand, and her use of collective pronouns to describe a singular self had a powerful rhetorical effect (which was admittedly still annoying, but purposefull.) Attempts to make up a new pronoun seem unneccessary to me, as everyone knows exactly how to read a genderless "he," but a new singular to me would be much clearer than using a plural or alternating between genders. The latter can be very confusing as the change from he to she implies a change in antecedent when no such change is actually occurring. The problem with a new pronoun, is how on earth to bring such a word into common use. I had a book once advocate the use of "s/he" which was to be read aloud as "she or he." Not only is it an eyesore, and the reading of it cumbersome, but what are the odds of everyone accepting and using such a term simply because a handbook used in a handfull of classrooms suggested it? Had I encountered that word in writing before I received that handbook, I'd have had no idea what that meant. This is the only solution that would have the intended rhetorical effect, but it seems very unlikely to be done. Ultimately, I say, "if it aint broke, don't fix it." |
08-27-2012, 03:35 AM | #89 |
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Are you similarly confused by the use of the plural "You" instead of the singular "Thou"?
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08-27-2012, 01:03 PM | #90 |
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Of course. If it is wrong for the language to change to add a singular "they", it was also wrong for the language to change to add a singular "you". If someone attempts to say "It was wrong then to use 'you' as a singular, but it later became correct," what basis is there to deny that the singular they could become correct? Use of the signular they doesn't create confusion, any more than does a singular you does.
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