903 PDF annotations on Pocketbook 903

[bogdaniosif]

Is the Pocketbook 903 capable of creating and editing PDF annotations?

I'm interested specifically in PDF annotations that are written in the PDF file. In Windows one can benefit from this capability using the free PDF-XChange Viewer or the new free Adobe Reader X or Acrobat. On the iPad, the Goodreader and iAnnotate apps can be used for the same purpose.

After some painful browsing with Google Translate around the updated 903 product section on "pocketbook.ua", I'm really afraid that the 903 is NOT capable of this feature that is of critical importance for anyone reviewing research papers or going through technical documentation.

Anyone, please provide this info before 903 hits Youtube.

P.S: I still hope that this capability exists or, if not, that it can be added immediately with a firmware update. I'm so anxious to find out because 903 seemed to be the 1st ereader having the feature set that I looked for, ever since these devices appeared on the market (large, high res, touch screen).

[catharsis]

Salutări, Bogdan! In the video here they said annotation was not ready yet, but when they sell it would be ready (check 1.35).

[bogdaniosif]

That video is the only source of information I found about annotations on 903. I wouldn't trust too much what the guy doing the demo said because he didn't seem to be very fluent in English. I just understood that one would be able to use the stylus to scribble notes in the RTM version.

It was ~naive from my part to assume PDF annotations are a given. It just seemed like a basic capability for a large chunk of the 903's target audience. What would be the point of getting a very expensive large screen ereader with a stylus if you can't annotate properly PDFs? These large screen readers were not eagerly awaited by consumers looking for a device good at leisure reading. A 6" is good enough at that.

I think Pocketbook thought that they need an annotation system that would work for all formats and that's why they implemented their own. However, the critical thing about annotations is that they must walk around off the device and on to other places along with the original document. Otherwise they're useless. That's why PDF annotations are so important.

There are two main reasons why I now lost most of my hope of having them in the RTM firmware of 903.
1. There is no mentioning of PDF annotations on the product page from pocketbook.ua http://translate.google.com/translat...ketbook-903%2F
2. The Pocketbook sales/marketing reps patrolling this forum section are dead silent about this issue even though they saw me and at least one other guy asking about it repeatedly.

[catharsis]

Well, let's just wait for the device to be released and then a lot of people will test it (probably in January would be safe to buy). It would not hurt either if someone from Pocketbook would give extra info in the meantime. I'm sure at some point 903 will have pdf annotation, it's stupid not to have that.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by catharsis

I'm sure at some point 903 will have pdf annotation, it's stupid not to have that.

Simple test: which Linux apps support in-file pdf annotations?
Which iPad apps?
That'll give you an idea of what it takes to implement that feature.

[bogdaniosif]

... do you already know the answer? I don't know of any such app and I read that one must use Wine and something like PDF-Xchange to make PDF annotations in Linux. I'm no Linux user though.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Simple test: which Linux apps support in-file pdf annotations?

Adobe Reader that I have just installed on my Mint Linux.

Now I have to get document that has property "Commenting allowed" set on ;-)

[bogdaniosif]

We are straying off topic a bit but you should know that only the very new and soon to be available Reader X is able to provide a lightweight annotation capability. This feature was forced into Reader X from the very expensive Acrobat because it became ridiculous not to have it when compared with other, free, alternatives.

Until now, only versions of Acrobat were able to perform annotations and Acrobat is not available for Linux. All previous versions of Reader, including 9.x, allow annotation ONLY in very special conditions (when working as a part of some digital document management platform from Adobe), regardless on whether or not a given PDF document allows annotations/comments.

Assuming the Linux version of Reader X exists and that it has the same feature set as the one from Windows, then it should be good news for Linux users. However, since this Reader version will use a proprietary license, the bets are high that it is legally incompatible with the Pocketbook 903 firmware, leaving alone the technical incompatibilities that I'm sure will exist. So I wouldn't get my hopes up in getting Reader X on the 903. Instead I would hope the built-in PDF reader from the 903 is updated to support PDF annotations.

[paaThaka]

Originally Posted by kacir

Adobe Reader that I have just installed on my Mint Linux.

Now I have to get document that has property "Commenting allowed" set on ;-)

Or an annotator that doesn't honor the bit.

I use Foxit Reader Pro on Windows and don't care whether I'm allowed to make my notes on PDF files or not. I make them and save them and I can export my notes inside the pdf-file across platforms.

I expect the PocketBook to do the same or it's a FAIL for technical reading/marking.

[Sil_liS]

On a different thread, in reply to a question about writing on the margines of a pdf, to which I had said that I dont think that there is enough space, Dulin's Books said:

"Writing in the margins. I have-with other similar devices- zoomed in, written in my normal hand, then zoomed out so that i now have small writing in the margin or in between lines.
However I have not yet been able to test this on the new devices because i dont have any of them in hand yet."

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by bogdaniosif

We are straying off topic a bit but you should know that only the very new and soon to be available Reader X is able to provide a lightweight annotation capability.

Key word: lightweight.

That is my point: in-file annotation requires opening the file for display, editing it, and then saving it in an adobe-compatible fashion, all using a couple hundred megabytes off RAM and a sub-GHz ARM processor, running on LINUX which Adobe goes out of its way *not* to support. This is not a trivial endeavor.

I would not hold my breath expecting any current-gen ARM-based device to deliver academic-grade PDF-handling any time soon when Adobe itself is only now attempting to deliver even part of the needed functionality.

Large screen size aside, eink readers, webpads, and media tablets of any brand or stripe are *not* full-function PCs and proper pdf processing requires a full PC. If replicating full PC functionality is a pass/fail requirement, save yourselves the grief and go get a netbook or Tablet PC, new or used as the budget allows.

Trying to turn ARM devices into PCs is a thankless job that will satisfy nobody. So far, Pocketbook has resisted the urge to try and have been careful to stay within the bounds of what the hardware performance envelope can deliver as there are limits to what even the best coders can achieve.

And as Inpector Harry Callahan used to say, "A man has to know his limitations."

[catharsis]

Well, iRex DR800 has some kind of annotation, but the notes are saved separately (I don't use it that often). I suppose it's easy to something like that with 903 and combine the note file + pdf on a PC.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by catharsis

Well, iRex DR800 has some kind of annotation, but the notes are saved separately (I don't use it that often). I suppose it's easy to something like that with 903 and combine the note file + pdf on a PC.

Yes, *that* is something one could reasonably aspire too.

The existing PB360 does something similar with its note-taking function; the clipped out sections (screen caps rather than text) are stored in a generic HTML file that can be ported to a PC. An indexed annotation file that refers to a specific PDF file, specific pages and specific locations could be fed to a companion PC app for combined viewing, printing, etc.

*That* we might see. At some point...

[bogdaniosif]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

I would not hold my breath expecting any current-gen ARM-based device to deliver academic-grade PDF-handling any time soon when Adobe itself is only now attempting to deliver even part of the needed functionality.

As you can see in the short movie below, handling PDF annotations is well within the power of the Apple A4 implementation of the Cortex-A8 ARM architecture. The CPU power that could be available is not the problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3g_wYr-vDI

However, you may have touched on an ugly problem bringing the performance of the 903 into question because looking through the tech specs here and here I can see that the iPad uses a newer generation of the ARM architecture and we can also assume that the optimizations done by Intrinsity would place the Apple A4 very well even amongst Cortex-A8 peers, let alone a generic implementation of the old ARM11 architecture found in the 903.

So I would say that it is reasonable to expect for an ereader to have a brand new, from scratch, implementation of a PDF editor capable just of annotation editing. Note that this would not require using any libraries from Adobe.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by bogdaniosif

So I would say that it is reasonable to expect for an ereader to have a brand new, from scratch, implementation of a PDF editor capable just of annotation editing. Note that this would not require using any libraries from Adobe.

The iPad is *not* an eReader and the screen it uses is a lot cheaper than a 10in eink screen and at its price point of >US$500 and mutimillion unit volume it can aford a 1GHz Cortex CPU and the *battery* to power it.

The choice of a 533MHz ARM 11 CPU was done on purpose, you know.
ebook readers are optimized for light weight and extreme battery life.
Media pads are optimized for media playback which requires hardware assisted graphics and power hungry cpus.
They are really two different creatures with different missions, just as netbooks are.
Blame a Pocketbook for not being an iPad? Might as well blame it for not being a Netbook or running Windows.

My point remains; ebook readers are primarily for reading and are designed to be efficient and effective at reading.
They are not PDAs, mediapads, or PCs.

We already have plenty of Tablet PCs that can do that already. Check out the Viliv models...