$329 for ipad mini

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by pl001

Amazon allows you to sideload. Apple does not.

Yes and no, depending on your focus.

On the user's (not developer's) side, Amazon is far more aggressive than Apple about proprietary content. Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but I've yet to hear of anyone's music library being wiped by Apple. Both impose useless proprietary formats for ebooks, but Apple's format is not the only acceptable one on iDevices, which means it doesn't matter unless one chooses to buy into that format (which I do not).

Amazon's interface is far more limiting than Apple's and involves an UI overlay atop Android which I find awful. If you're not interested purely in buying content from Amazon, you're far better off rooting.

On the other hand, you could root the original KF (haven't been reading up on the HD), whereas iDevices can only be jailbroken, and sometimes with consequences. That's a definite minus.

For people who intend only to use a tablet without rooting, Amazon strikes me as the more controlling of the two. For people who choose to root, Apple is the one to avoid (with a major caveat; see below).

Originally Posted by bugjd

see, the argument against as laid out just now by hrosvit is how these things should go. recognizing you use your tech one way while others may use theirs a different way. and whatever works best for an individual, by whatever means they use to determine "works best", should really be the end of the argument.

1. Earlier on, someone said they were interested purely in functionality and not the user experience. And while I do give full credit to the user experience, there are also limitations posed by software and its hardware implementation.

A lot of music software -- particularly softsynth, module and notation software -- is better on a touch screen than a keyboard, and the original workstations of the '80s bear this out. The majority of professional software that works best on a tablet is in the Apple library, therefore Apple tablets become more useful than the rest for musicians regardless of specs.

In the past, Android's UI was far too jerky to be relied upon for timing-accurate uses. Jellybean appears to address that issue, but I'd still want to make sure before depending on it for casual music or film editing.

2. To buy what people on MR tell you to without discovering which device you yourself prefer is truly to be the sheep which others on this thread claim Apple users to be.

I'm a Samsung, Sony, Asus, Amazon, B&N or Apple user depending on the nature of the task. I would be succumbing to internet peer pressure if I refused to buy the one tablet with the only viable music library because its specs, pricing, marketing and social politics seemed objectionable to certain MR members.

So would anyone who loves the user experience of an iPad mini more than any other smaller tablet they try.

Anyone who's dependent on particular Apple software and can't find its correlate on Google Play might also have to choose Apple. It's about function, not ideology or pricing models.

If the screen and software library prove good enough, I might consider a Mini in a year or two when the price comes down. But I'd prefer an iPad 3 or 4 at a reasonable price once they're obsolete.

The point is to be able to compose music on vacation or on a train, not show off the latest and best iteration of a common consumer device.

[pastanley]

Its looking like Steve Jobs was right all along about staying away from the 7" ipad

[Graham]

Originally Posted by afv011

5 reasons why you shouldn't buy the mini:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasoneva...-an-ipad-mini/

There's a very interesting reply by Dianne Hackborn, a Google engineer, in the comments to that Forbes article. I can't seem to link straight to her comment, and I think the whole thing's worth reading rather than selectively quoting, so apologies for a lengthy post here.

Obviously she's defending the Nexus 7 (following its portrayal as flawed in the iPad mini launch), but in doing so it gives us more food for thought in what works at various screen sizes:

It is certainly true that the resolution and screen size they picked for this device [the iPad mini] is largely being driven by constraints based on their legacy of current products and applications. I don’t think it is right to talk about this as an issue of apps “optimized for Retina,” but rather their core model of having very fixed resolutions and fixed 2x scaling for higher density. (The same reason why for the iPhone 5 they ended up with existing applications stuck with black bars on the edges until developers explicitly update their applications to know about this new screen size.)

So their choice here is really either: (1) keep the existing iPad screen resolution and aspect ratio (at the original iPad resolution or the retina 2x resolution), shrinking the size down as much as possible without impacting usability too much (because the entire UI becomes smaller and thus harder to touch with a finger); or (2) introduce a new class of screen for iOS apps and reset to an app store for this device that initially only has phone apps in it until developers update their apps to handle the new screen.

What they did is probably the best decision given their constraints.

However, if you are going to talk about them in terms of the competition, these constraints do not excuse them for the situation. The fact is that Android has more flexibility in how it deals with screens, so when something like the Nexus 7 is designed there are fewer constraints in what can be done and the device can more closely match what product designers consider optimal for the device. This applies to both size and pixel density: Android applications are designed to adjust to variations in screen size, so a smaller screen or wider aspect ratio can be selected and the applications will generally adjust to it, and this allowed the choice of a smaller more portable device size for the Nexus 7; in addition, Android doesn’t impose a strict 2x scaling when picking pixel densities, so the Nexus 7 could pick a more optimal screen density for the current technology, which is not quite up to Apple’s classification of “Retina on a tablet,” but much closer to that than to the density of the iPad Mini and a better trade-off for cost and power use than Apple could make.

So, yes, every device represents a point in time and will be eclipsed by devices in the future. But the fact is that Apple has built a fairly inflexible UI architecture, which has forced them to pick device characteristics that are not as good as the ones that people can pick with Android’s more flexible approach. If Apple is going to get to beat on Android for its variety of device configurations and such, we should also get to acknowledge the benefits that Android’s approach brings over iOS.

Along those lines, it is interesting to note that in all of their beating up of the Nexus 7 and “tablet optimized” applications (as well as other screen content comparisons), they did everything in landscape orientation. Why do you think this is? The Nexus 7 is pretty clearly designed to be used as a portrait device for most things besides watching videos and playing games; my impression is that the iPad also tends towards portrait as its dominant orientation (unlike Android 10″ tablets that tend to be oriented around landscape use).

So why show everything in landscape? This actually biases things quite a bit against the Nexus 7. When we designed the Nexus 7, we actually didn’t just shrink down a 10″ tablet. Ironically, Apple made a big point of their iPad Mini not being just a shrunk down iPad, but that is exactly what it is! Because we had more flexibility with Android, we got to look at what we thought was an optimal screen size, which is smaller than what Apple could do without creating a whole new class of iOS applications. One of the impacts of this is that, on 7″ screens, portrait orientation apps often work better as a single pane layout (more like a phone) than a tablet style two pane layout.

If you go through the standard applications that ship on a Nexus 7, in portrait orientation they not infrequently use a more phone style UI rather than tablet UI — this includes the YouTube app, Play Store, Settings, etc. This isn’t because they aren’t tablet apps; all of these applications have full 10″ tablet UIs that have already shipped on previous devices. It is just that for them the 10″ tablet UI doesn’t work as well on a 7″ screen. Applications may also switch to a tablet style UI in landscape, but this is not as important since they will more often be used in portrait. Or many will have a more compact two pane layout on the smaller 7″ screen — for example GMail and GTalk do this. The iPad Mini does none of this, it just takes all of the existing iPad tablet UIs and shrinks them down with the result of smaller touch targets and smaller text to read instead of adjusting the content shown. That complete focus on landscape layouts is tremendously misleading about the actual experience on these devices, and again is glossing over one of the real benefits that Android as a platform has over iOS.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by smithjames260

Could you post the specs of this iPad mini, I think it is just new in market. Thanks!

Here's the UK version:

http://www.apple.com/uk/ipad-mini/specs/

Welcome to MobileRead!

Graham

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

On the user's (not developer's) side, Amazon is far more aggressive than Apple about proprietary content. Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but I've yet to hear of anyone's music library being wiped by Apple. Both impose useless proprietary formats for ebooks, but Apple's format is not the only acceptable one on iDevices, which means it doesn't matter unless one chooses to buy into that format (which I do not).

It's true that you can only load mobi files on the eInk Kindles, but you can sideload other ereader apps on the Fires (without rooting). So in that respect they are similar to the iPad in that you can read all formats (except those with the iBooks DRM).

Also, in following up the recent 'library wiping' story, it's emerged that this didn't happen. The user had a broken Kindle, so couldn't get to her content on that, and for some reason her account was closed, cutting her off from her online content. No wiping occurred, and Amazon have since restored her account.

Graham

[forsooth]

Originally Posted by pastanley

Its looking like Steve Jobs was right all along about staying away from the 7" ipad

I called back to the office today. I am presently in the field.
My friend who keeps up with the mobile technology said that the iPad mini was stunted. The best technology that Apple had was withdrawn from it. The thought was that some in the Apple organization had inclination to not do best job so that the smaller tablet wouldn't be a great success. Especially at the beginning.

I can see that. Who wishes to call the Saint flawed? Some places I go they cut off your head for that.

Also I think it is more an 8 inch tablet. Still hard to carry in a pocket.

Yes 7,9 inches.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by SeaKing

As for the iPad Mini, it is surprising that that particular equipment isn't better. In my opinion, they could have spent an extra $50 and charged $500 for the device, and just said it was to fill that size niche.

The choices they have made are very clearly to reduce costs, rather than make the best device possible.
The display is the size it is (7.9") because that is the intersection of keeping exactly the same pixel density as the pre-retina iPhones on the one hand (so they can reuse the technology and production capacity), and keeping exactly the same resolution as the iPad 1/2 on the other (so all existing apps will work).
It is likely that in 6 months to a year we will see a retina iPad Mini with the same resolution as the iPad 3, but even greater pixel density, and that is a device that would truly earn a price premium over the competition.
I'm in the market for a map-pocket device to take out walking, and am probably going to go with the new Nexus 7 32G over the iPad Mini. I'd actually prefer the Mini, the screen format is more suitable for what I want to use it for, and I could reuse all my software, but I can't justify spending twice the price. If it had been a retina display, I'd have been happy to pay more for it.

[forsooth]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

The choices they have made are very clearly to reduce costs, rather than make the best device possible.
The display is the size it is (7.9") because that is the intersection of keeping exactly the same pixel density as the pre-retina iPhones on the one hand (so they can reuse the technology and production capacity), and keeping exactly the same resolution as the iPad 1/2 on the other (so all existing apps will work).
It is likely that in 6 months to a year we will see a retina iPad Mini with the same resolution as the iPad 3, but even greater pixel density, and that is a device that would truly earn a price premium over the competition.
I'm in the market for a map-pocket device to take out walking, and am probably going to go with the new Nexus 7 32G over the iPad Mini. I'd actually prefer the Mini, the screen format is more suitable for what I want to use it for, and I could reuse all my software, but I can't justify spending twice the price. If it had been a retina display, I'd have been happy to pay more for it.

Better is hiking GPS.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by forsooth

Better is hiking GPS.

I need something that can use my own manually created maps (using MOBAC), without size limitations, and the hiking GPS's I've looked at have all been too restrictive.
The Garmin Montana units look like nice devices, but they are considerably heavier and bulkier than a tablet, and quite a bit more expensive as well. Their real value is in the increased battery endurance and weatherproofing/ruggedisation, which I don't really need, I'm only going on 4/5 hours hikes, rather than multiple day treks.

[Canuck_in_Japan]

Originally Posted by MrDoug

I tried the Nexus 7 as well..it's nice.. but no comparision to the iPad Mini.. just my three cents..
Doug

Typical Apple user, willing to pay a 50% premium for everything, including his own thoughts!

[JD Gumby]

Originally Posted by pastanley

Its looking like Steve Jobs was right all along about staying away from the 7" ipad

We don't know that. After all, Apple has yet to announce a 7" iPad. (the differences between 7.9" and 7" are VERY large, especially if you take into account the difference between 4:3 and 16:10/16:9 aspect ratios)

[obsessed2]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

On the user's (not developer's) side, Amazon is far more aggressive than Apple about proprietary content. Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but I've yet to hear of anyone's music library being wiped by Apple.

Maybe not directly responsible, but Apple's laxidasical approach to security has proven far more damaging:


http://www.ibtimes.com/did-apple-all...ut-data-738888

http://www.forbes.com/sites/adrianki...apples-icloud/

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

Amazon's interface is far more limiting than Apple's and involves an UI overlay atop Android which I find awful. If you're not interested purely in buying content from Amazon, you're far better off rooting. For people who intend only to use a tablet without rooting, Amazon strikes me as the more controlling of the two.

While Amazon certainly encourages you to use its ecosystem, it is not required and there are many choices. I can get Apps from 1Mobile, SlideMe, Freeware Lovers, AndroidPit, and GetJar just to name a few. Apple products are far more restrictive than Amazon.

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

Earlier on, someone said they were interested purely in functionality and not the user experience. And while I do give full credit to the user experience, there are also limitations posed by software and its hardware implementation. In the past, Android's UI was far too jerky to be relied upon for timing-accurate uses. Jellybean appears to address that issue, but I'd still want to make sure before depending on it for casual music or film editing.

All OS lag, including iOS. While Android's lag was more prevalent in the past, this has and will become less noticeable as the OS evolves and more powerful hardware continues to become cheaper and available.

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

To buy what people on MR tell you to without discovering which device you yourself prefer is truly to be the sheep which others on this thread claim Apple users to be.

This is how everyone should shop, but you know that a lot of people simply just have to have the latest thing. This goes for both Apple and Android owners.

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

I would be succumbing to internet peer pressure if I refused to buy the one tablet with the only viable music library because its specs, pricing, marketing and social politics seemed objectionable to certain MR members.

I wouldn't buy clothing from a company using sweat shop labor any more than I would buy another product made in one either. This goes for Samsung, Apple, or any other company that does business with companies that exploit severely overworked and underpaid workers while they make more off the sale of just ONE item than they pay a worker for an entire month with almost no time off and perpetual overtime:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/technol...ildren-080912/

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57...one-factories/

[MrDoug]

Originally Posted by PatNY

You should really wait till the 29th. Supposedly on that date, Staples will be selling the 32gb Nexus 7 for $249. And the 8/16gb models will be cut in price by $50 each.

--Pat

Yes, I will wait.. Thanks for the info..
Doug

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by obsessed2

Maybe not directly responsible, but Apple's laxidasical approach to security has proven far more damaging:

The news items to which you've linked are concerned with security breaches contingent on having an iCloud acccount. No one who's concerned with security has ever been interested in iCloud for the precise reason those items illustrate. The Playstation Store is bad enough, let alone hackable online bins filled with personal property.

On the other hand, I don't like the cloud aspect of Google, either, especially the lack of individual users' privacy created by the company's dependence on targeted ads for profit. The fact that gmail accounts can be hacked easily and often is maddening, but it isn't a global indictment of Google for "laxitude," as you put it (love those Fox News neologisms).

Besides which, you're conflating the deliberate and aggressive wiping of content with a company's getting hacked through "social engineering." And the news item about the one woman whose supposedly wiped Kindle turned out to be broken is hardly the only reported instance of Amazon's removing content in response to a user's perceived offense.

While Amazon certainly encourages you to use its ecosystem, it is not required and there are many choices. I can get Apps from 1Mobile, SlideMe, Freeware Lovers, AndroidPit, and GetJar just to name a few. Apple products are far more restrictive than Amazon.

In my limited experience, those apps are never quite independent of the Amazon Store, which is why I always purchase Android apps through Play or directly from the developer.

I don't need to live in a greeting card store when I'm in the mood to write on a tablet -- I want to see only empty space. I want a tablet with a clean desktop to serve as my imagination's aquarium, not a store filled with garish posters for Angry Plankton.

Besides which, you're responding to a comment about hating the proprietary onslaught that is the unrooted Kindle Fire with a non sequitur about being able to buy apps from various companies which don't happen to make the tablet for which you're buying them (which of course you can also do in the case of Appleware and collaborative devices by Google and others).

The number of apps and their practicality for the individual is a completely different subject and hinges on the nature of every individual's preferences and uses.

All OS lag, including iOS.

Said the person who clearly has no idea what relative lag means when a producer is being paid by the hour and a client is sitting there not only expecting a great track at the end but also to be entertained by the process of its creation.

Jellybean's clearly a step up in terms of smoothness and Google will likely nail its UI in the next few years. But every OS and every piece of software has to be tested before it can be relied upon for music created and synced on multiple platforms, devices, modules and sometimes media.

The problem is that professional and classical music are niche areas for the developers of hardware and software and Apple has a vested interest. They actually bothered to buy Logic, a pro-level German DAW when they acquired it. Microsoft and IBM are the major shareholders for AVID and ProTools. What corresponding property is Google, B&N or Amazon interested in complimenting and developing for musicians?

While Android's lag was more prevalent in the past, this has and will become less noticeable as the OS evolves. . . .

. . . which is exactly what I said in the quote to which you responded. It's odd to be faced with a person taking a polemical stance who then paraphrases what I've just said. Perhaps I haven't made my position clear or perhaps you're taking me to be yet another Apple apologist because that's a convenient way for you to see me.

I wouldn't buy clothing from a company using sweat shop labor any more than I would buy another product made in one either. This goes for Samsung, Apple, or any other company that does business with companies that exploit severely overworked and underpaid workers while they make more off the sale of just ONE item than they pay a worker for an entire month with almost no time off and perpetual overtime. . . .

If you're going to make an analogy that involves my particular point, then make the correct one. Here's an example (and let's be literal about it):

Hemethro plays and writes music for classical violin in a world in which two-stringed Klezmer-ready violin makers abound. Only one person, Apephleppler, makes four-stringed violins designed for the classical repertoire. Apephleppler isn't entirely ethical in the work conditions he forces on his assistants, but neither are the majority of two-stringed violin makers in the area.

Hemethro depends on her four-stringed violin to make a living, since she's vastly outnumbered by working violinists who've mastered only two strings.

Should Hemethro forego the chance to ply her craft and buy instruments only from Adribleph, one of the few makers who are fair to their workers, or should she buy the violin that will support her, and advocate legislation to prevent Apephleppler and others from being allowed to exploit their staff?

That's the choice you're asking a musician and composer to make when you restrict them to Amazon (and Android in general for music-making purposes). No one should have to forgo creative tools in order to take a stand against inhumane practices. Do I understand you to mean you wouldn't buy from Samsung either (since the work conditions for their factory workers are at least as bad as Apple's)?

Perhaps Windows 8 tablets will allow for more musician's choices if they fulfill their promise of true laptop power in tablet form. In which case I'd be able to run Finale, Cubase, ProTools and even Sonar (as KevinC mentioned), which would not only dwarf the iPad in terms of processing power, but also -- most importantly -- in terms of a preexisting music software library. Competition is usually good, and I'd love to see that kind.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by obsessed2

While Amazon certainly encourages you to use its ecosystem, it is not required and there are many choices. I can get Apps from 1Mobile, SlideMe, Freeware Lovers, AndroidPit, and GetJar just to name a few. Apple products are far more restrictive than Amazon.

Heck yeah, I cannot fathom Presti's reasoning one whit.

It's not that complicated: Apple ONLY allows approved apps through the Apple app store, and Apple ONLY allows sideloaded content through iTunes.
Amazon is open by comparison. Copy books movies and music just like you were putting it on a thumb drive (or OFF the device to another computer...try THAT with Apple), and get apps from all the above sources plus loading your own if desired, no root or jailbreak required.

The other things mentioned, like Amazon locking someone out their account, has nothing to do with sideloading or walled-garden restriction, nor does their choice of GUI loader, which is also replaceable, by the way.

And calling Amazon's ebook format "useless" (or "obsolete" as other have called it) shows an utter disregard for either reality or the meaning of words, since the Amazon format is still hugely popular and successful, and in practical terms, every bit as usable as epub. (Though I would prefer the potentially richer, open standard on principle.)

ApK