Seriously thoughtful Ender's Game in the K-5 Library - Really?

[cearbhallain]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

I have never seen that on American TV. will I have to find a recording?

Yes, you will. Criterion did a two disc version that has some interesting special features (and being a slut for commentaries I listened to them all) you may have to go to your local independent shop to find it. Or Netflix might have it.

[GraceKrispy]

Originally Posted by cearbhallain

Starship Troopers isn't senseless violence, but I understand why some people think that it is. *SNIP*

Another issue that I've been thinking about relating to this topic is that here in the US we seem to have less problem letting children consume media with violent content than we do with sexual content. So say instead of being a potentially highly skilled soldier Ender was instead a potentially highly skilled prostitute. Who would let their kids read that? Note that our society currently finds neither of those professions appropriate for a child, however we're more willing to explore the killer nature of a child than his sexual nature.

As to the first part, I don't trust that my 9yo can necessarily understand the meaning behind the violence, but I trust more that he can understand when it's explained. He's more of a literary guy than a "finding the deep rooted messages in a visual display" kind of guy. I can understand that there is more of a meaning to the movie, but I don't know that he will understand it, kwim?

ITA with the second part-- I do think in the US we are much more apt to let our children view violence than sex. I think that's backward, perhaps owing to our roots, however?

[cearbhallain]

Originally Posted by GraceKrispy

As to the first part, I don't trust that my 9yo can necessarily understand the meaning behind the violence, but I trust more that he can understand when it's explained.

Since the violence takes place in an environment, and between characters and creatures that bear little resemblance to reality, I think it's more like letting then watch Tom and Jerry. There's a reason the Itchy and Scratchy cartoons on the Simpsons are so funny - Tom and Jerry is pretty horrific, and yet it's normal to let kids watch it. My kids have always had a strong sense of what's ridiculous which helps a lot.

As to violent and disturbing movies that people think are appropriate for kids; I remember attending a screening of the Mask at a second run cinema. The auditorium was crammed with people who'd brought their toddlers. Oh, and it was a double feature with True Lies. I wouldn't have let my children see either of those movies when they were small - see I do have standards

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

actually if you let yourself go into the reality of when the book was written, watching the movie, is so much in line with the news reels and over the top reporting of the day. at first I was completely dissapointed with the way the movie was done, then it clicked

For about the first half of the movie I sat there thinking "this is so crap!" and then it finally clicked that it was supposed to be satirical and I really enjoyed it.

I can be a bit slow sometimes.

[Lesgo]

Please consider that AR reading levels have absolutely NOTHING to do with maturity or age appropriateness. They are simply based upon reading skill and expected vocabulary capability for a particular grade level. Obviously, one fifth-grader can have a completely different maturity level than another. A book level is only a guide to if your child can READ the book without getting hopelessly bogged down and confused if the level is too high, or bored if the level is too low. It would be ridiculous for you to think a child at a standard fifth-grade level of 5.5 would be captivated by a book written at the first-grade level, now wouldn't it? Deciding what book content and concepts are appropriate for your child's maturity level is YOUR job. It is called "PARENTING." Just like you make the decision about your child seeing an R-rated movie, you get to decide what your child can read. I am lucky that my child attends a small local school, and the librarian gives me a call if she thinks a book has inappropriate content for my 5th grader. She reads at a 10th-grade level, so she is capable of reading books above her maturity level; I just don't allow her to.

[meeera]

My eleven year old is reading Ender's Game right now, and handling it just fine. I was reading from the adult section starting before that age. He's read other YA books that some people consider "not for kids", such as The Hunger Games, and again been fine. We talk through the themes and the violence. And he has, these days an exceptionally good grasp on the difference between fiction and reality. (To the point that he's rather hard to scare with horror films!)

I reckon in text-based books, with the odd exception, middle grade kids tend to pick up what they can handle, and put down what they can't. We manage what video he watches and videogames he plays and comic books he reads (quite liberally now, but there are limits), but we made a decision a while back that whatever novels he wanted to read, he pretty much could.

[HomeInMyShoes]

My parents never talked to me about my books much. I read a lot of Stephen King starting when I was around 15 or 16.

I've read some books I don't think I'd want my kid to read until they were out of university, but that's pretty rare. I don't think that's me not thinking my kid could handle it, but me not being able to rationalize it to them in any way.

Ender's Game has some moments in it, but nothing that terrible in my mind. The squirrels is disturbing, but they can find that on the news. If I can't discuss that with my son I can't discuss the evening news with him either.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by cearbhallain

There will probably be SPOILERS!


I personally feel that a story about a child who logically, and arguably correctly, puzzles out the the solution to a pack of bullies is to stomp their leader (accidentally to death) and is then trained and tricked into committing genocide might be a little much for a fifth grader to process. I could be wrong, what do you think?

And what solution would you have come up with that would have stopped the bullying?

Every watch "A Christmas Story"? Bullies respond to one tactic and one tactic only....it solved the problem.

All the "be nice children and don't bully" lessons currently being used in schools today will never work on those who are empowered by their ability to cause fear and enable them to have control over their victims. They just hide it better.

As I recall, Ender felt and will always feel remorse that he caused that death....he hated that it happened. Thats a great lesson there. Sometimes you do what HAS to be done, when every other option has been tried, but it doesn't feel good....

As for "genocide"....well....when you cannot communicate with an alien species who is hell bent on enslaving or wiping out your own species, what other option is there?

Ender was 'tricked' because no way in hell could a child that young be able to process the horror of what he had to accomplish. The ending of the book stunned me...I did not see that coming.

And finally, as for this book not being suitable for 5th graders, I respectfully disagree.

I work with 5th graders all day, as a volunteer. There is a wide range of maturity there....some, like my granddaughter are still in the "I love My Little Pony" stage....totally innocent but not for long i fear. We're very careful about what she watches, but cannot control what she sees and hears at school.

Many, however, have been exposed to violent games, (they play with their dads) and have unrestricted TV watching.

If Abbey were ever to want to read a book I felt was too old for her, I'd let her in a heartbeat.....but we would talk about it, in depth. Thats how you make sure they come away with the lessons you want them to learn from what they read.

[Rbneader]

I think it's a fine book to read at 11 or so. Gifted kids in particular are usually ready for things earlier than adults think, and even regular 6th graders figure out moral ambiguity and needing to think for themselves. It's a great tool for sparking important conversations and laying groundwork before they get wrapped up in middle school.

I read it first at age 10, and a lot of the themes really resonated. I think it's one of the few books that does intelligent children with any kind of accuracy, and as a gifted kid that was very important to me. I was ready for a lot of things that other kids my age weren't and the typical kids books were very frustrating and childish to me.

Ender's Game is an intelligent kids' book, and lots of kids read it when they start figuring out that morality can be ambiguous and they need to start thinking for themselves. It's important to talk about all the books kids read, so just make sure to talk about this one when you and your kids start sharing recent books read.