Secrets of Indie Success

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by davidwfleming

...

.... my best guess is the best way to get more numbers is to raise one's profile online. ....

Uh, no, the best way is to write more and better stuff that more readers are interested in reading.

For all the time you spend tweeting and blogging you could be writing more stories. That what makes for a successful writing career.

[davidwfleming]

Sort like the saying "if you build a better mousetrap, the world will make a beaten path to your door." Maybe this adage is still true.

For example, if a person just wrote a bunch of kick-ass blog posts then, hypothetically, people would just spread the word on their own. Do people really talk about internet stuff offline?

It makes sense but is hard to test one way or the other.

Right now I'm thinking of a "layered method" ie do the social media stuff for a while, write for a while, keep switching back and forth. After each cycle, I'll have more content out there and a more prominent reputation cloud.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by davidwfleming

Sort like the saying "if you build a better mousetrap, the world will make a beaten path to your door." Maybe this adage is still true.

For example, if a person just wrote a bunch of kick-ass blog posts then, hypothetically, people would just spread the word on their own. Do people really talk about internet stuff offline?

It makes sense but is hard to test one way or the other.

Right now I'm thinking of a "layered method" ie do the social media stuff for a while, write for a while, keep switching back and forth. After each cycle, I'll have more content out there and a more prominent reputation cloud.

no your analogy is wrong. but carry on there are many such journeys.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Uh, no, the best way is to write more and better stuff that more readers are interested in reading.

For all the time you spend tweeting and blogging you could be writing more stories. That what makes for a successful writing career.

I agree... I have one blog that is now getting steady visits... and I have never done much to promote it. I just faithfully post something every week at about the same time, and I get daily visitors that check in on it. Now that it has a decent amount of content I could I suppose get out and promote it... but its a bit of a niche market and I rather just write. Growth is slow but steady.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by davidwfleming

[...]For example, if a person just wrote a bunch of kick-ass blog posts then, hypothetically, people would just spread the word on their own. Do people really talk about internet stuff offline? [...]

Not sure how much they talk about it offline (my offline life is pretty isolated these days), but they certainly talk about blogs etc. online: Facebook and forums with links to blogs, blobs with links to blogs (one of my real annoyances are blog posts that are really just copies of another blog), etc. etc. etc.

BUT - and I think this is important - successful blogs (blogs that get widely quoted and linked) are mostly about the blog content. To get a blog that is widely quoted/linked (to get the fame that we might hope leads to more people reading our books) means writing something that sparks widespread interest or controversy - and since we are talking about not-yet-famous authors here, then we are talking about content that is not related to what we are writing (since what we are writing is, by definition, not yet going to spark widespread interest, that's what we are hoping to attract). ... Getting a bit circular there, but then marketing and money-making is often circular, it's getting the flywheel spinning that is difficult.

I have yet to see any evidence that says a successful blog will lead to significant extra attention to details not related to the blog - such as the latest book you might be trying to sell (which my circular argument above indicated is not about your books).

Sure I visit the occasional author's blog, but only because blogs are how people do websites these days, in most cases I'd be just as happy to visit a traditional website and see what news they've put up.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by gmw

I have yet to see any evidence that says a successful blog will lead to significant extra attention to details not related to the blog - such as the latest book you might be trying to sell (which my circular argument above indicated is not about your books).

It builds name recognition, and that is precious in our industry. People by the new Steven King book, just because his name is on it. When [insert random well known non-author person here] suddenly comes out with a book, people will buy it just because that name is on it. This is why advertisers pay so much for endorsements form actors.

[kennyc]

Yes, reputation and some amount of exposure and projection is necessary to get the word out, but the key is the content. You can polish a turd all you want, but it's still a turd. And if an indie author keeps pushing turds that word gets around too.

(Please Note: This is not in reference to ANYONE in this thread)

[gmw]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

It builds name recognition, and that is precious in our industry. People by the new Steven King book, just because his name is on it. When [insert random well known non-author person here] suddenly comes out with a book, people will buy it just because that name is on it. This is why advertisers pay so much for endorsements form actors.

But part of my point was that it will only build name recognition if it gets widely quoted and linked. If it doesn't get that then there is no more name recognition than goes with a normal website. I'm not saying you shouldn't blog, I'm only questioning the benefit of blogging as a name recognition tool.

There are exceptions, here thinking of someone like Bruce Schneier, where an author's expertise (and so right and justification to be able to publish some non-fiction field) can be aided through maintenance of an appropriate blog. I can imagine someone writing travelogues might also get such an advantage ... but for your typical fiction author I see a blog mainly as a way of communicating with existing fans rather than finding new ones.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by gmw

But part of my point was that it will only build name recognition if it gets widely quoted and linked. If it doesn't get that then there is no more name recognition than goes with a normal website. I'm not saying you shouldn't blog, I'm only questioning the benefit of blogging as a name recognition tool.

There are exceptions, here thinking of someone like Bruce Schneier, where an author's expertise (and so right and justification to be able to publish some non-fiction field) can be aided through maintenance of an appropriate blog. I can imagine someone writing travelogues might also get such an advantage ... but for your typical fiction author I see a blog mainly as a way of communicating with existing fans rather than finding new ones.

I have several blogs, only one of which is for my book specifically which I use as a news/update for the series. The one that is doing well is the one I post to every week on a somewhat niche topic. That is more the kind of thing I had in mind. If that blog continues to grow, then I will build name recognition through it. That was never the intent of that blog, and it predates my novels, but it still could fulfill that purpose just by existing.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by davidwfleming

Steven,

Are you on Twitter?...

Seems like all I hear, constantly, about social media is: "Are you on this one yet? This one will make all the difference."

This has gotten me into blogging, into Facebook, into Goodreads, into commenting on half-a-dozen other sites, and you know what? The only thing it all gets me is a ticket on the Frustration Train.

Why? Because for all the learned things I comment on, for all the cooperation and participation I give, no one is sharing anything. I am not accumulating followers on Facebook who are telling all their friends about me. I'm not seeing commenters who agree with my comments showing up and buying, or telling anyone else that I'm someone to check out. No one is using social media to talk about my books, much less me.

As far as I can tell, the only things that are being shared and liked on social media are lolcats and bogus Inspiration posters, bad jokes, celebrity check-ins and the products of already-famous people. Well-reviewed SF by an unknown author? Not at all.

Social media isn't the answer... if it was, there'd be a million rich indie authors out there right now.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by gmw

But part of my point was that it will only build name recognition if it gets widely quoted and linked. If it doesn't get that then there is no more name recognition than goes with a normal website. I'm not saying you shouldn't blog, I'm only questioning the benefit of blogging as a name recognition tool.

There are exceptions, here thinking of someone like Bruce Schneier, where an author's expertise (and so right and justification to be able to publish some non-fiction field) can be aided through maintenance of an appropriate blog. I can imagine someone writing travelogues might also get such an advantage ... but for your typical fiction author I see a blog mainly as a way of communicating with existing fans rather than finding new ones.

The importance of blogging and forum posting is evident in search engine results. I would recommend that every writer with his own website should have a forum or a blog on it. It not only gives content to a website, which search engines look for, but it also gives you an idea of what your readers think about your work and want from it.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Seems like all I hear, constantly, about social media is: "Are you on this one yet? This one will make all the difference."

This has gotten me into blogging, into Facebook, into Goodreads, into commenting on half-a-dozen other sites, and you know what? The only thing it all gets me is a ticket on the Frustration Train.

Why? Because for all the learned things I comment on, for all the cooperation and participation I give, no one is sharing anything. I am not accumulating followers on Facebook who are telling all their friends about me. I'm not seeing commenters who agree with my comments showing up and buying, or telling anyone else that I'm someone to check out. No one is using social media to talk about my books, much less me.

As far as I can tell, the only things that are being shared and liked on social media are lolcats and bogus Inspiration posters, bad jokes, celebrity check-ins and the products of already-famous people. Well-reviewed SF by an unknown author? Not at all.

Social media isn't the answer... if it was, there'd be a million rich indie authors out there right now.

You may not think that Social Media is the answer for you, but SMM is a big part of any author's/website's marketing strategy. Don't believe me? Then google yourself. You will see that not only does your books on Smashwords and Amazon come up in the search results, but also your face book page, Goodreads, B&N and even your posts on MR.

SMM is not a five minute job, it's a long hard slog, but the rewards are definitely there. When others research you, they will find a wealth of information about you and your books and this will surely lead to more sales in the long run. Stick with it.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Don't believe me? Then google yourself. You will see that not only does your books on Smashwords and Amazon come up in the search results, but also your face book page, Goodreads, B&N and even your posts on MR.

Appearances in Google searches don't equal sales. And I've been doing this for over 5 years.

Social media is a popularity contest. Popularity contests don't sell the best products... they sell sparkly vampires. Those of us who want to sell more than sparkly vampires need something more than social media.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Appearances in Google searches don't equal sales. And I've been doing this for over 5 years.

Social media is a popularity contest. Popularity contests don't sell the best products... they sell sparkly vampires. Those of us who want to sell more than sparkly vampires need something more than social media.

I'm sure you know best.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

The importance of blogging and forum posting is evident in search engine results. I would recommend that every writer with his own website should have a forum or a blog on it. It not only gives content to a website, which search engines look for, but it also gives you an idea of what your readers think about your work and want from it.

I agree that blogs and websites are a great way to interact with an audience, I am less confident that they are a way to get an audience.