Maybe Sony Did the Right Thing

[scrapking]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

Succinctly and aptly put, scrapking. This post, like others of yours on this thread, add to the conversation and benefit other people who happen to be reading it despite the annoyance of individuals with rather particular criteria. Feel free to expand and expound for those who don't mind walls (or wells) of text. Again, well said.

Thanks for the reply. Having come from a tablet-based e-reader, I've been thrilled with having a front-lit e-reader instead. My premise is that this is the way the market is going to go, but we'll know soon enough. All the companies with front-lit e-readers also offer non-front-lit models, so it will hopefully start becoming apparent which is selling better. It'll be interesting to see what we see more of in "Introduce Yourself".

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by scrapking

Do we know that they're exactly the same, or based on the same principle? I have a sneaking suspicion that, in an attempt to make it come out looking whiter, that Amazon modified it in a way that (when it goes wrong) creates the colour blotching that people refer to.

The light guide and display itself are the same tech in both. The Kindle uses a capacitive layer between the light guide and eInk display. I'm not sure if the Kobo uses a capacitive layer as well, or is still IR-based (it looks capacitive from review shots). Either way, to make the front-light work well, you need to bond the guide to the display. A capacitive layer means you need two layers of bonding. IR means you only need one.

It's not as if the light guide is terribly complicated piece of tech. It's not really a new idea (look at the light wedge for the 505 for example). The difference is more getting at newer materials made in a way to get more uniform lighting as a sheet. I suspect some of these materials include the newer plastics that are making more flexible fiber optic cables available over the last few years.

The blotching is unlikely to be caused by the light guide itself unless there is terrible control over the purity of the material in the light guide. That's not exactly a common situation these days to have purity so low as to be visibly uneven. However, incomplete or uneven bonding will produce distortions of the light passing through it between the guide and the display.

As far as I can tell, the "whiteness" and light uniformity of both models is roughly similar. And the Kobo is not immune to blotching, just a smaller percentage are seeing it (if you can even determine a percentage based on forums): https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=193587

There's other factors that can contribute to the differences, but in general, there's a lot of ways you can have two groups telling Foxconn to assemble the same thing, and get different results.

Originally Posted by scrapking

Really? Crazy. They used to release multiple models in the past, didn't they? I recall looking at several models at a time, each time I evaluated Sony e-readers in the past. Interesting.

It makes sense if you want to focus a bit and push price/features. Sony isn't really doing a great job with that though. Over the last few years they've seemingly been throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. Some of it does, some of it doesn't.

[Cdesja5]

The Kobo remains IR, they did not add the extra layer required for the capacitive screen.

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by Cdesja5

The Kobo remains IR, they did not add the extra layer required for the capacitive screen.

The Mini still looks like IR, but I've not been able to confirm the existence of the IR windows on the Glo. Are they getting good at hiding them?

Either way, my points still stand in the end, they aren't really dependent on which tech Kobo picked.

[Cdesja5]

Originally Posted by Kolenka

The Mini still looks like IR, but I've not been able to confirm the existence of the IR windows on the Glo. Are they getting good at hiding them?

Either way, my points still stand in the end, they aren't really dependent on which tech Kobo picked.

Well, this post by SameerH, Kobo Product Manager confirms that the Glo is IR. It may be that your points stand in the end, I'm not a tech expert and wouldn't know...
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=22
Quote:
Hi everyone

The kobo Glo uses IR touch from neonode. This eliminates the need to add another layer of glass or conductive surface on to the screen. The less layers, the better the experience in our view.

Our front light technology works by using LEDs and a nanopatterned light guide. The LEDs force light into the light guide and the nano pattern directs the light evenly across the display.

I don't know about the competition, but I would our case I would challenge anyone to be able to tell the difference between a bare E ink display and the Glo E ink display which has the light guide implemented on it. I can't.

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by Cdesja5

Well, this post by SameerH, Kobo Product Manager confirms that the Glo is IR. It may be that your points stand in the end, I'm not a tech expert and wouldn't know...
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=22

Fair enough, that does make the process a bit simpler for Kobo: 2 layers bonded together instead of 3. Kobo's statement about using a nanopatterned light guide also helps clear some other stuff up. Amazon calls their nanoimprinted, which may sound different, but I am even more convinced that the light guide is pretty much identical. You can use nanoimprinting to get a nanopatterened material for example... and still call it "nanoimprinted" as well. They are being vague on purpose here but are basically describing the same thing. Any variances in the technique would not lead to color blotching, but would more likely lead to light scatter, defocusing, etc. The advantages of the technique tend to fight this sort of thing.

So I still believe that the issue is how the various layers are bonded. Confirmation that Amazon's layers in the display are more complicated (display -> capacitive touch layer -> light guide) means there's more opportunity for the bonding process to be rushed and done incorrectly. Especially since they are the first to try capacitive touch. Personally, I would have put the touch layer behind the eInk display itself on top of the display's substrate, and kick up the sensitivity a bit. But perhaps Amazon can't do it that way if eInk is providing them with displays already on the substrate. Hard to know for sure. In either case, you have light passing from the light guide, through a bonding layer, through the capacitive layer, through another bonding layer, and then reflecting off the display, passing through the other 4 layers a second time. Yikes.

I see Amazon's problems with the Paperwhite more as teething problems on new manufacturing process rather than a design flaw. The first group are easy to fix, companies always incorporate a feedback loop onto their manufacturing. The second group, not so much. PRS-700 anyone?

[Prestidigitweeze]

Reading various posts stating that Kobo is the only one of the three major e-reader companies to implement the front-lit screen and actually "do it right," I feel as if I'm reading MR in a parallel universe. I was quite inclined to ask my GF to buy me a Kobo Glo as a Christmas present before reading a few MR threads on the topic. Lots of people have reported returning or exchanging Glos due to white pixels, screens gone dead, perpetually drained batteries and various travails involving the software -- and that's not even addressing the fact that there seems not to be a vital Kobo community creating alternative firmware or rooting the Glo for Android, which is distressing given the alternative options for Nooks, Kindles and Sony Readers.

All of this is not intended to be anti-Kobo -- I very much wanted an epub reader with a higher resolution screen, front-lighting and a faster processor. But I've been reticent because of the various complaints I've read, combined with the shipping cost and the prospect of having to send my Kobo back to Canada even to be looked at if something went wrong. For the mome, I've decided to wait until things get sorted to consider the Glo.

I love Kobo Books; it's the site I use most for buying content. But when the other new e-readers aren't plagued with serious stability issues, why would I want to buy a Glo and add faraway customer service and possible software glitches and failures to the challenge of finding a front-lit e-reader without lighting defects?

[scrapking]

Originally Posted by Kolenka

<interesting dissertation on the available info of current front-lighting systems snipped>

Thanks so much for that, it was very interesting! I read it in detail as I lay in bed last night, which amused my partner no end ("You're reading about what?!"). Is this your field of work and/or study, or did you learn so much about this in another way?

So much for my theory that the PW problems stem from trying to make it look as white as possible. Ah well....

[Jane12]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

Reading various posts stating that Kobo is the only one of the three major e-reader companies to implement the front-lit screen and actually "do it right," I feel as if I'm reading MR in a parallel universe.

I agree. While the Kobo Glo seems to be having a smoother launch than the Kindle Paperwhite (as far as hardware goes, we won't mention software glitches ;-), I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say "the light technology is where we want it if you do it right."

I was seriously considering a Kobo Glo (and still might get one), but there are clearly a bunch of posts reporting a variety of issues, albeit not on the scale of the Paperwhite.

One post in particular that gives me pause:

Originally Posted by trevormorse

I just spent 1/2 hour at Chapters returning my pre order because of a bright pixel and the 3 they opened for me at Chapters all had bright pixels. The manager shut it down with a "We can't open them all, take one of these or we'll give you your money back.".

I choose the one with a bright pixel in the black bar so at least it's not in the text. Can't say I'm real happy though...

And then there's this one:

Originally Posted by Lunchtray

I spend the first day I got my Glo at chapters going through 5 devices until I got one with the least amount of problems. Mine has a small bright pixel in the top left corner where no text is ever shown.

I think no matter what there's going to be a small imperfection in the Glo layer no matter what due to manufacturing it and the way fibreoptics work.

It seems to me that either the technology isn't quite there -- or maybe it's just the manufacturing/quality control that still needs attention, in which case Kobo isn't doing it entirely right, they're just doing it better than anyone else so far.

It will be interesting to see how well Kobo's display holds up to use over time, or if scratches become an issue.

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by scrapking

Thanks so much for that, it was very interesting! I read it in detail as I lay in bed last night, which amused my partner no end ("You're reading about what?!"). Is this your field of work and/or study, or did you learn so much about this in another way?

So much for my theory that the PW problems stem from trying to make it look as white as possible. Ah well....

A mix of things. Astronomy is a hobby, which means that through that and my old physics classes in high school, I have a working knowledge of optics. Not good enough to design any, but enough to understand a technique when explained to me.

I do software engineering for a living, and know people who actually handle analyzing repairs that come in from customers, as well as some electrical engineers. The company I work for is not small, so it does give some interesting insight into large-scale engineering (both the good and bad).

I honestly didn't know what nanoimprinting was before this thread, but now I do. And it does make sense as a way to improve the evenness of a light guide, but in the end, the plastic used by Amazon and Kobo is not drastically different from the 505's light wedge cover, just done with more advances in light guide manufacturing techniques.

But really, it's hard to compare raw numbers here, since the size of the Kobo group on this forum is different than the Kindle group. The relative sizes need to be accounted for, and we need a large enough sample for any results to be statistically significant. Unfortunately, only Amazon and Kobo know their real failure rates, and root causes.

[scrapking]

Originally Posted by Jane12

<comments and quotes about bright pixels snipped>

Bright pixels? As opposed to dead pixels? What's a bright pixel? Either my Glo doesn't have any, or I don't know what I'm looking for. I've seen two Glo readers in the flesh, and both seemed to have pretty much perfect screens. Interesting.

[scrapking]

Originally Posted by Kolenka

But really, it's hard to compare raw numbers here, since the size of the Kobo group on this forum is different than the Kindle group. The relative sizes need to be accounted for, and we need a large enough sample for any results to be statistically significant. Unfortunately, only Amazon and Kobo know their real failure rates, and root causes.

And worse yet, we don't know what proportion of happy customers are commenting vs. what proportion of unhappy customers are complaining. Is there a silent majority out there?

I suppose given all that, perhaps I should retract my earlier statement that we can be confident that Kobo got it right. Though, as I say, the two I bought (one for me, and one for a U.S. resident on Mobileread who asked if I could help him get one) had great screens to the best of my ability to determine.

Since you've been researching this up the ying-yang, how do the Kobo and Amazon approaches differ from Nook's approach?

[Jane12]

Originally Posted by scrapking

Bright pixels? As opposed to dead pixels? What's a bright pixel? Either my Glo doesn't have any, or I don't know what I'm looking for. I've seen two Glo readers in the flesh, and both seemed to have pretty much perfect screens. Interesting.

I believe you when you say your screens are "pretty much perfect." It sounds like a lot of Kobo owners got good screens, which is great. And based on the number of complaints so far, it sounds like Kobo may be doing a better job than Amazon or B&N with these front-lit devices.

But there do seem to be some problem screens out there.

Here's a thread devoted to bright pixels:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=192807

Here's another thread about what to look for:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=194151

[soulfuldog]

Some interesting stuff there Kolenka, but regards the capacitive screen on the Paperwhite, it's been suggested that this is in effect a layer that is painted on, like a coat of nail varnish, so would that mean it's not a layer than needs bonded with the other layers? Sorry of that's a daft question, I'm clueless about the tech of these screens!

Regards the number of complaints about the Kobo v the Kindle, I've been saying all along that it's likely there are far more Kindles sold, so the number of complaints is hard to quantify when comparing the two, and that while Kobo seem to be doing slightly better, it's early days yet and there is plenty of time for things to change. I've said on the Kindle forum though, if I was to go out and buy a front-lit e-reader tomorrow, I'd probably go for the Glo - mind you, the deciding factor is the the on/off button for the light on the Kobo, something the Paperwhite is missing.

[Jane12]

Kindle Paperwhite v Kobo Glo side by side:

http://goodereader.com/blog/electron...-the-kobo-glo/

Not sure how much is the light settings and camera, but I'm startled how much better the Paperwhite's screen looks in this video. I'd love to see the two side-by-side in person.