People who want no DRM are impractical dreamers...

[queentess]

Originally Posted by stonetools

There is really one crucial question that must be answered before we can give up on DRM. Can we assure that writers and publishers can make a good living in a post DRM world? Here, I must say, that I find the arguments of the anti DRM folk rather weak.
1."Somehow, we will find way to compensate writers and publishers". Somehow? Well, I'm sorry, that's not good enough . We are talking about the the livelihoods of millions of writers and people employed in the publishing industry. I think they deserve more than what may be charitably described as a pious wish and less chaaritably, as fatuous, self serving BS.

Uhh... by buying their work? I don't understand people who think that removing DRM is the equivalent of giving away everything for free. It's not. Not everyone is sitting behind their monitor cackling madly and downloading free books. It's just making it easier for honest people to buy the books. My mom and my mother-in-law both have ereaders, and neither use them because they can't figure out which stores they're "allowed" to buy from. That's all manner of ridiculous.

Originally Posted by stonetools

2."Look at the example of the music industry. " Yep, let's look at the music industry. Revenues have gone down every where, despite iTunes. And musicians have ways of making a living other than publishing content.

The music industry hit their peak, and now they're in decline. Honestly, I don't really buy a lot of music. I have an XM subscription, and that's where I listen to all my music. I'm from a younger generation: we don't buy albums. We're also not forced to purchase an entire cd just because we want one song... and this is part of what was driving cd sales. Now, artists have to put out a solid album, it's no longer enough to have one hit on it to drive album sales.

Originally Posted by stonetools

4."Look at Baen Publishing". This seems to be a good example. However, Baen's is a small scale publisher, serving a niche market. Can their approach scale up to a worldwide industry encompassing many genres? I do not know the answer to that question.

I don't know, but I'd love to find out. I don't think the exact way they work will work for every publisher, but yes, I do think getting rid of DRM is a great first step. I don't think it's in every publisher's best interest to give away cds with tons free books they've published... this just seems like lost revenue to me.

Originally Posted by stonetools

I would humbly suggest that the anti DRM folks direct their efforts to providing a detailed answer to that question, rather than sit around in a circle congratulating themselves on having the "right" answer to the question of DRM. It is only when that question is answered that there is any hope that publishers and authors will give up DRM

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

DRM has been such a hassle in computer games that a lot of people went and downloaded them just to get them without DRM. So what did DRM do in case of a lot of computer games? It just caused people to download them when they would have paid otherwise.

It also is pushing the game developers to find new ways to enforce the DRM.

Two key examples are XBox Live and Valve's Steam. Both systems "phone home" to ensure that the game is a legit copy. If the account is invalid or the game is tampered with (in a manner detectable by the system), the player is typically barred from services such as online play.

Also, aren't major developers like EA still using DRM? Isn't Wiiware locked to the Wii device itself? Doesn't Apple require DRM for anything sold through its App Stores? The characterization that the game biz has abandoned DRM doesn't sound accurate.

Last but not least, I still have serious doubts that the majority of infringement is because of allergic reactions to DRM (and/or availability issues). Offer your stuff without DRM and/or at a low price, and it'll still be on Pirate Bay within a week of release -- that is, if people are remotely interested in that content. I have no doubt that some people do this, they are just overwhelmed by people who, for whatever reason(s), don't want to pay.

[stonetools]

No, it's really more like: should I lock the door on my house or not? (Here comes my paraphrase...) A lock will keep an honest person out, but a lock won't stop a dishonest person.

THe analogy of a lock is helpful here. A lock on the door will not stop a determined, skilful burglar from breaking into my house. But it will stop the casual amatuer. History shows that when you make it very easy to steal something, it gets stolen a lot. Make it somewhat difficult, and the incidence of theft becomes much less.
The sense of entitelement that the original source was talking about had to do with those who felt that ebooks, like information, should be free.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by snipenekkid

Park your vehicle in a very public parking lot with lots of people, leave a $10 bill on your car windshield so it is nice and visible, leave for an hour. Is the money there or gone?

I don't know--have you actually done the experiment and stood by to watch what people do? My bet is that most people won't have a moral decision because they won't even really see the money--they'll think it's a flyer or a parking ticket or something. Others will notice it and pass by. If one person does take it, what have you proved?

Should the money be elaborately booby-trapped because one person might reach out and try to take it? Suppose the person who left it there just wants to take it back and put it on another vehicle?

[queentess]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Last but not least, I still have serious doubts that the majority of infringement is because of allergic reactions to DRM (and/or availability issues). Offer your stuff without DRM and/or at a low price, and it'll still be on Pirate Bay within a week of release -- that is, if people are remotely interested in that content. I have no doubt that some people do this, they are just overwhelmed by people who, for whatever reason(s), don't want to pay.

What I've actually done before: purchase ebook, go pirate ebook, load to my preferred device. It's easier than stripping the book myself, compatible with everything, and it'll never disappear on me if the stores shut down. And for someone who "grew up" on Napster, it's a big thing saying that I make an effort to pay for the content at all when it's such a hassle trying to load to different devices to ensure the longevity of my purchase.

[Catlady]

Deleted

[queentess]

Originally Posted by stonetools

THe analogy of a lock is helpful here. A lock on the door will not stop a determined, skilful burglar from breaking into my house. But it will stop the casual amatuer.

I think you're overestimating just how easy it is to pick a lock As stated by a person whose house was broken into when I was sitting on the couch, in plain view of an open window, at night, with lights on, and no visible incentive to steal (ie - no purses, laptops or gadgets in sight). So no, a lock will not stop a "casual amateur".

If someone wants to come into your house, a lock will not stop them. If someone wants to pirate a file, DRM will not stop them. It barely slows them down.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Why are writers and publishers somehow entitled to making a good living?

Because I like to read and I like to reward people who provide me with entertainment. If I pay them, it makes it more likely they will continue to make content for me.

You're also not going to convince anyone to give up DRM if you say "you have to get rid of this, and oh, by the way, we're not going to pay you anything either".

[covingtoncat73]

Hmmm...I am brand-new to the eBook thing. I have had my iPod for a few years and been plenty happy either buying direct from iTunes or buying a CD and loading it to my iTunes but I just ran into my first bit of trouble with eBooks and DRM.

There is a book that sounds very interesting to me and got a "starred review" in publisher's weekly. You can pre-order it on Amazon or B&N (it is not out yet, will be in May). You can pre-order the physical book from those stores and elsewhere but the eBook is only available from the 2 biggies.

I pre-ordered it less than an hour ago from B&N, then realized they were calling it a "nookbook" and not an eBook or ePub. I did a quick googleing, that I should have done before buying, and found Nookbooks will not work on my Kobo when I thought the only store I couldn't buy from was Amazon. Apparently, it is because of DRM. Now I was willing to spend the $7.99 they were asking for it and did.

If I can't get an eBook version that will work with my Kobo, I'll get the paperback, which is the same price. Do you think BAM, Borders, or Kobo will have an ePub of it after the publication date?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by stonetools

There is really one crucial question that must be answered before we can give up on DRM. Can we assure that writers and publishers can make a good living in a post DRM world?

Why do you have to ensure that? "A good living" seems to me to be a strange goal. Why not have the goal to have a suitable level of creation of interesting works as a goal?

[stonetools]

If someone wants to come into your house, a lock will not stop them. If someone wants to pirate a file, DRM will not stop them. It barely slows them down.

Yet you (and im sure , most people on the forum) still lock your doors. Again, locks WILL stop the casual amatuer. A burglar with a lock pick can easily pick a lock, but then he is a professional-a person who has acquired the special tool and training to break in that way.
Again I think folks on this forum really lose sight of how unaffectedthe average user is by this stuff. Grandma who just bought a Kindle understands that she can buy books in seconds from Amazon. She's perfectly happy with that and does not know- or even want to know-about sideloading, backing your library up to a computer, transferring ebooks between devices, Calibre, etc, etc.
That's a big part of discussions by experts-the ONLY people who are really concerned about DRM

[Fayth]

I'd just like to point out that the lock analogy doesn't really work with DRM. Unless you are talking about non techy people putting a book on a flash drive and sharing it locally. I suppose that could be an issue, but its impact seems relatively minor to me. Not having DRM on ebooks will in NO way change the pirate scene however. Its almost as easy for them to crack a book and upload it as it is for them to just upload one without DRM. It really is just a few clicks. Also, the number of people who can upload a file to share doesn't really matter in the pirate scene, because all it takes is one person who gets a decent amount of seeders and their torrent becomes the torrent most people use, because its at the top of the list.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by stonetools

THe analogy of a lock is helpful here. A lock on the door will not stop a determined, skilful burglar from breaking into my house. But it will stop the casual amateur.

DRM isn't like a lock you install on your house door. It isn't a helpful analogy. If you really want a house/lock analogy for DRM, here's a much closer one:



A builder builds a house and sells it to you (leasehold!). The builder has installed a clever lock on the house that recognises you and unlocks the door for you. The builder also makes the lock recognise the other members of your family. Up to six of them, anyway.

But you can't change the lock yourself. You can't rent the house out to anyone. And you can't sell the house to anyone, as the builder won't reset the lock to recognise new owners.

And then one day, you can't get into your house. You've got new glasses, or shaved off your beard, and the lock no longer recognises you. The builder has gone out of business, and there's no way to reset the lock. You house is now useless. But another builder has a very similar house next door. You just need to pay again.



And even this isn't a very good analogy, as while it's working the lock actually does you, the house 'owner' some good. DRM does not do anything for someone who's bought an ebook.

[Janette55]

I'm one of those plain simple people who knew that ereaders were basically an electronic book (simply put). I had checked them out and wanted one, so hubby said go for it and I bought one.

When I picked one out (Sony 900) I had never heard of DRM and I am the idiot type that has to yell for help here and everyone is great to help me out (I am also the type who forgets her username and passwords so I have a list, LOL).

When I first heard about DRM, I thought it was a form of copyright that is on a lot of stuff. But the more I learned of it, here and at other places, to me is seemed totally different. Since we are looking for a car (hybrid) I will use it for my example. We go to a dealer, buy a buy and sign the contract. Bring it in later to get checkup and mention we are going on a trip. We are told we can't; it states in our contract that we can't take the car out of a 100 mile radius. Also, anything we have added, any items now in the car or we put there we can't transfer to another car.
Where is that in the contract, oh, it is a code mixed up in the other sectons. We didn't know it was there or we wouldn't have bought the car. Sorry, you are out of luck, you signed the contract.

When I bought my books I didn't now about DRM, and now if I want to take my books and go to another area (reader) I can't. There is a code hidden that I was NEVER told about.

Sorry, I see that as the big five, or six or whoever (places such as Amazon) they are as trying to justify their stealing from me. That is our car, we should be able to drive it whevever we want and when we decide to buy a new car, be able to transfer the stuff we have in it, no matter if it junk or a new sound system.


Sugar coat it any way you want, they can use any excuse, justificationn, they want about some stupid N10 and other crap. I bought my books, I have the right to transfer them to another reader if I want.

They want to steal my books away from me, and that "ain't" happening. That to me is what DRM really is, their method to control my books and limit me in what I can do with them.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by queentess

Because I like to read and I like to reward people who provide me with entertainment. If I pay them, it makes it more likely they will continue to make content for me.

You're also not going to convince anyone to give up DRM if you say "you have to get rid of this, and oh, by the way, we're not going to pay you anything either".

I deleted my post because it didn't say what I intended, and I decided not to try to get into an explanation of what I really meant.